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Author Topic: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban  (Read 657 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Helping Jeff keep up with Trump-related news. Looks like he missed this one. You are welcome, Jeff.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/979970/donald-trump-travel-ban-supreme-court-decision-muslim-ban

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2018, 12:06:02 PM »

Let's also add the GREAT move by Foxconn to build a manufacturing facility in southern Wisconsin.  According to the President, "Frankly, they weren’t going to come to this country. I hate to say it, if I didn’t get elected, they wouldn’t be in this country. They would not have done this in this country. I think you know that very well.”  I'm sure that the $4.8 billion (yup, you got that right, billion) in tax incentives of all kinds played no part in Foxconn's decision.
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texshooter

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2018, 12:55:18 PM »


Another Trump win.  No thanks to this beacon of brilliance.  Or maybe she's praying for Trump to drop dead.


« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 06:26:45 PM by texshooter »
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OmerV

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2018, 01:43:27 PM »

Let's also add the GREAT move by Foxconn to build a manufacturing facility in southern Wisconsin.  According to the President, "Frankly, they weren’t going to come to this country. I hate to say it, if I didn’t get elected, they wouldn’t be in this country. They would not have done this in this country. I think you know that very well.”  I'm sure that the $4.8 billion (yup, you got that right, billion) in tax incentives of all kinds played no part in Foxconn's decision.

So the tariffs on our northern “ally” and neighbor are meant to offset these kind of give-aways to the Chinese?

Well, I wonder if the out of work coal and steel workers will now be assemblying iPhones? And since Wisconsin is a right-to-work state, no union soup for those workers. But wait, isn’t communism a kind of union? And how would the SCOTUS decision* apply to communism?

*Different decision but a victory for the Trump party nonetheless.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2018, 02:52:04 PM »

So the tariffs on our northern “ally” and neighbor are meant to offset these kind of give-aways to the Chinese?

This is the "money" quote from the article, "Foxconn itself has been more circumspect on the number of jobs it will create, saying in a press release it will “create 3,000 jobs with the potential to grow to 13,000 new jobs”. Even if 13,000 new jobs are created, Wisconsin would be paying $346,153 per job at a subsidy of $4.5bn. An astronomical sum, but nothing compared to the $1.5m per job cost if the deal ends up creating just 3,000 new positions."

Really good negotiating by the Governor of Wisconsin.  I wonder if President Trump would have cut a better deal.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2018, 03:28:13 PM »

... Wisconsin would be paying $346,153 per job...

Let's not get carried away with that "logic." By the way, that's the same "logic" the left uses against "tax cuts for the rich." As in: "Trump is giving $$illions to the rich."

No, Wisconsin isn't "paying," nor is government "giving" to the rich. Both are simply not taking that money away, from Foxconn or the rich.

Look at that this way:

Foxconn doesn't' come to WI = zero taxes, zero new jobs
Foxconn comes to Wi = zero or some taxes, 3,000-13,000 jobs

Job creation has a multiplier effect on the economy, so Wisconsin wins even with zero taxes from Foxconn.

RSL

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 03:45:54 PM »

It's no use, Slobodan. To any leftist the economy is a fixed-size pie. No leftist comes near recognizing that an intelligent person willing to take a risk often is able to build something new and increase the size and productivity of the economy. To a leftist the only question to be answered is "who gets what part of the fixed pie?" A leftist never will understand what you're saying because there's nothing in his brain or in his background that can make contact with that kind of reality.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 04:03:15 PM »

Let's not get carried away with that "logic." By the way, that's the same "logic" the left uses against "tax cuts for the rich." As in: "Trump is giving $$illions to the rich."

No, Wisconsin isn't "paying," nor is government "giving" to the rich. Both are simply not taking that money away, from Foxconn or the rich.

Look at that this way:

Foxconn doesn't' come to WI = zero taxes, zero new jobs
Foxconn comes to Wi = zero or some taxes, 3,000-13,000 jobs

Job creation has a multiplier effect on the economy, so Wisconsin wins even with zero taxes from Foxconn.
You are missing the fact that probably 30-40% of the workforce will come from Illinois (factory will be right across the border) and will be taking their earnings back to that state.  It's not as clear cut as you would like it to be.   It's pretty much the same story as building sports stadiums, lots of state money used and very little return.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2018, 04:08:53 PM »

You are missing the fact that probably 30-40% of the workforce will come from Illinois (factory will be right across the border) and will be taking their earnings back to that state.  It's not as clear cut as you would like it to be.   It's pretty much the same story as building sports stadiums, lots of state money used and very little return.

Oh, please! Then it is a win for both Illinois and Wisconsin.

The stadium analogy is flawed, as WI is not investing any money (I am assuming that, as I have no details of the deal; I am simply reacting to the statement that tax incentives = paying).

James Clark

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2018, 04:09:07 PM »

Let's not get carried away with that "logic." By the way, that's the same "logic" the left uses against "tax cuts for the rich." As in: "Trump is giving $$illions to the rich."

No, Wisconsin isn't "paying," nor is government "giving" to the rich. Both are simply not taking that money away, from Foxconn or the rich.

Look at that this way:

Foxconn doesn't' come to WI = zero taxes, zero new jobs
Foxconn comes to Wi = zero or some taxes, 3,000-13,000 jobs

Job creation has a multiplier effect on the economy, so Wisconsin wins even with zero taxes from Foxconn.

I'm curious to what extent you feel corporations or individuals should be taxed, and what, if any financial obligation those entities / individuals should have to their city/state/nation. 
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James Clark

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2018, 04:10:25 PM »

It's no use, Slobodan. To any leftist the economy is a fixed-size pie. No leftist comes near recognizing that an intelligent person willing to take a risk often is able to build something new and increase the size and productivity of the economy. To a leftist the only question to be answered is "who gets what part of the fixed pie?" A leftist never will understand what you're saying because there's nothing in his brain or in his background that can make contact with that kind of reality.

Is it possible for you to engage in discussion without being insulting or dismissive of positions that don't align with your own?
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2018, 04:16:45 PM »

Is it possible for you to engage in discussion without being insulting or dismissive of positions that don't align with your own?
Not really and it's the principal reason that I no longer respond to his posts when he is directly trolling me. 
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OmerV

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2018, 04:17:53 PM »

It's no use, Slobodan. To any leftist the economy is a fixed-size pie. No leftist comes near recognizing that an intelligent person willing to take a risk often is able to build something new and increase the size and productivity of the economy. To a leftist the only question to be answered is "who gets what part of the fixed pie?" A leftist never will understand what you're saying because there's nothing in his brain or in his background that can make contact with that kind of reality.

Russ, Slobodan,

Do either of you know what the average pay will be for most of the workers at the plant? Before you start lauding the creation of jobs, remember that the fast food industry mostly pays at the minimum wage. The Foxconn plant will undoubtedly be highly automated and while a few engineers will be compensated well (they may be Chinese,) most of the grunts will get...what?

I’m curious as to why an industry that flourishes by the use of low payed grunt workers in China is setting up shop in the US?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2018, 04:17:57 PM »

I'm curious to what extent you feel corporations or individuals should be taxed, and what, if any financial obligation those entities / individuals should have to their city/state/nation. 

You might have noticed, James, that I did not go into any judgement on taxes in general. Simply reacting, almost mathematically, to the notion that tax incentives or tax cuts = paying.

In general, I am not against taxes. And in this case, there will be some even if Foxconn pays zero, because extra employment and the multiplier effect will generate sales and income taxes.

Would I like that Foxconn et al pay more? Sure, who wouldn't. But better a bird in hand than two in the bush (with my apologies to PETA).
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 04:22:53 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 04:20:07 PM »

Russ, Slobodan,

Do either of you know what the average pay will be for most of the workers at the plant?...

It would be infinitely higher than no pay.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 04:20:37 PM »

Oh, please! Then it is a win for both Illinois and Wisconsin.

The stadium analogy is flawed, as WI is not investing any money (I am assuming that, as I have no details of the deal; I am simply reacting to the statement that tax incentives = paying).
Then don't comment when you have not read anything about the agreement.  You can start with this post from Menzi Chinn an economics professor at Univ of Wisconsin.
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James Clark

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 04:27:37 PM »

You might have noticed, James, that I did not go into the judgement on taxes in general. Simply reacting, almost mathematically, to the notion that tax incentives or tax cuts = paying.

In general, I am not against taxes. And in this case, there will be some even if Foxconn pays zero, because extra employment and the multiplier effect will generate sales and income taxes.

Would I like that Foxconn et al pay more? Sure, who wouldn't. But better a bird in hand than two in the bush (with my apologies to PETA).

I did notice - I was asking out of genuine curiosity.  I'm not of the opinion that tax cuts/incentives generally pay for themselves - but note that I'm also not of the opinion that that's always a bad thing, or even that it's necessary that they do.  By the same token, I remain unconvinced that attracting new jobs or a major employer is automatically a win, and I imagine that any model attempting to quantify either side would likely come up short.  All that said, those kinds of economic impact studies are pretty damn far from my areas of expertise.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 04:30:10 PM »

Then don't comment when you have not read anything about the agreement...

I am not commenting on the agreement, only on the flawed notion that tax incentives = paying. I am also commenting on your post, which, by the way, is an attempt to distract from my OP. You did not state that WI is actually investing anything. I have zero interest in reading the extra material. If you state yourself something to that effect, even if by quoting the relevant part, I will comment on that.

And for the record, I think that stadium financing in general is a bad deal if it doesn't return enough on the state investment. Then again, panem et circenses is a time-proven formula to keep the population "happy," so maybe the state is getting enough back after all.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 04:33:58 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 04:35:59 PM »

I did notice - I was asking out of genuine curiosity.  I'm not of the opinion that tax cuts/incentives generally pay for themselves - but note that I'm also not of the opinion that that's always a bad thing, or even that it's necessary that they do.  By the same token, I remain unconvinced that attracting new jobs or a major employer is automatically a win, and I imagine that any model attempting to quantify either side would likely come up short.  All that said, those kinds of economic impact studies are pretty damn far from my areas of expertise.
The state's own economic analysis shows this not reaching the break even point until 2043 based on an average salary of $53K/worker.  Foxconn has already changed plans and is building a smaller initial factory than they stated.  Foxconn has promised things to communities in the past only to cancel projects (just ask the fine citizens of Harrisburg PA - I'll leave it to those interested to Google the references as you all really need to do some research instead of just posting random musings that make no sense).
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump wins MAJOR immigration victory as SCOTUS UPHOLDS travel ban
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2018, 04:41:09 PM »

The state's own economic analysis shows this not reaching the break even point...

What break even point? What is state investing? Hypothetical tax revenue?
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