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Author Topic: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO  (Read 721 times)

spassig

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PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« on: July 01, 2018, 05:49:36 AM »

Hello

The PO webpage show different lenses.
a) Schneider Kreuznach
b) PhaseOne
What is the different?
Who is the manufacturer of P.O. lenses?
Are some details available about SK will not fabricate high level lenses in future?

https://www.heise.de/foto/meldung/Schneider-Kreuznach-Angekuendigte-Fotoobjektive-abgekuendigt-2736507.html

Jochen



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Doug Peterson

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2018, 04:05:11 PM »

The Schneider line “HS” have leaf shutters. The Phase One “D” line does not.

Both are made in the Phase One Japan factory (formerly Mamiya). Schneider consults on the design and quality control of the Schneider line.

The announcement you point to is about large format lenses where Schneider was overcome by the competition of Rodenstock and pulled out. It has no bearing on the medium format Schneider LS lens line.

spassig

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2018, 06:13:31 PM »

@Doug
Thanks, it is helpful.
Where can I find MTF-diagrams of Schneider-Kreuznach lenses.
On website from SK I found nothing.
On website from Mamiya I found this:

http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/lenses.html

But there are no diagrams.

Jochen



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spassig

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2018, 06:26:02 PM »

The announcement you point to is about large format lenses where Schneider was overcome by the competition of Rodenstock and pulled out. It has no bearing on the medium format Schneider LS lens line.

I not shure that You are right.
In the article is a link to other article from 22. June 2012.

https://www.heise.de/foto/meldung/Schneider-Kreuznach-Details-zu-neuen-MFT-Objektiven-1624102.html

There is following sentence:

A good week ago, Schneider Kreuznach announced its intention to enter the market for system camera lenses.

Jochen


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Wayne Fox

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2018, 01:17:56 PM »

I not shure that You are right.
In the article is a link to other article from 22. June 2012.

https://www.heise.de/foto/meldung/Schneider-Kreuznach-Details-zu-neuen-MFT-Objektiven-1624102.html

There is following sentence:

A good week ago, Schneider Kreuznach announced its intention to enter the market for system camera lenses.

Jochen

but in 2015, they announced they ended that ...

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/07/06/schneider-kreuznach-announces-its-ceased-development-of-all-mft-lenses-comp
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2018, 05:23:17 PM »

@Doug
Thanks, it is helpful.
Where can I find MTF-diagrams of Schneider-Kreuznach lenses.
On website from SK I found nothing.
On website from Mamiya I found this:

http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/lenses.html

But there are no diagrams.

Jochen


Hi Jochen -

There are no available MTF's for the newer Schneider lenses (at least not available to me). I've tried. I do have some MTF's for the older Schneider 55mm/80mm/110mm lenses if you're interested.

I can send you the info if you like.

Since the title of your thread is SK lenses vs P1, I would add that if you don't have a desire/need for leaf shutter (you're not trying to maximize flash sync and your shutter speeds will be 1/30th second or faster or 1 second and slower), then you will find very equivalent optical performance with the following combinations:

Phase One 80mm/2.8 D Lens  vs  Schneider 80mm LS (and BR) Lens
Phase One 120mm/4 Macro D Lens  vs  Schneider 120mm/4 LS (and BR) Lens
Phase One 150mm/2.8 D Lens  vs  Schneider 150mm/3.5 LS (and BR) Lens

In all other instances, the Schneider lenses are noticeably (and in some cases substantially) superior in optical performance to the previous Phase one D lens of the same focal length.


Steve Hendrix/CI



Steve Hendrix/CI
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 05:31:26 PM by Steve Hendrix »
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Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Alpa | Cambo | Sinar | Arca Swiss

Wayne Fox

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 09:11:51 PM »


In all other instances, the Schneider lenses are noticeably (and in some cases substantially) superior in optical performance to the previous Phase one D lens of the same focal length.

I thought the 28mm's were pretty similar optical.  Is that not true?
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 09:41:10 PM »

I thought the 28mm's were pretty similar optical.  Is that not true?


Hi Wayne - that's actually a good call. I tend to discard the 28mm because there isn't a Blue Ring version yet and it is such a promisingly flawed lens. The results do seem similar enough that I would consider them close to even, but here's the thing. In almost every single instance when I have compared 28mm D and 28mm Schneider, the Schneider has been better. But it seems better in such a way that it appears the Schneider versions simply have tighter quality control, in other words, just better versions of the same lens. And as I was told by Uli at Schneider (before he retired), the 28mm is the same 28mm formula used in the 28mm TS Lens made for Canon/Nikon, therefore the larger image circle required for the tilt/shift movements enabled it to cover 645. But the edges do fall off regardless.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 11:44:36 AM »


Hi Wayne - that's actually a good call. I tend to discard the 28mm because there isn't a Blue Ring version yet and it is such a promisingly flawed lens. The results do seem similar enough that I would consider them close to even, but here's the thing. In almost every single instance when I have compared 28mm D and 28mm Schneider, the Schneider has been better. But it seems better in such a way that it appears the Schneider versions simply have tighter quality control, in other words, just better versions of the same lens. And as I was told by Uli at Schneider (before he retired), the 28mm is the same 28mm formula used in the 28mm TS Lens made for Canon/Nikon, therefore the larger image circle required for the tilt/shift movements enabled it to cover 645. But the edges do fall off regardless.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Hey Steve, are you sure it's not just a whole lot less shutter shock with the LS over the FPS 28mm or did you compare them with electronic shutter?  The lenses should be pretty much identical with e-shutter.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 03:20:34 PM »

Hey Steve, are you sure it's not just a whole lot less shutter shock with the LS over the FPS 28mm or did you compare them with electronic shutter?  The lenses should be pretty much identical with e-shutter.


Definitely not a shutter shock issue (at least in my testing). The thing is, when you test a bunch of 28mm lenses, the optical differences really jump out. As in this one has a really crappy left side, this one has a really crappy right side, etc. When we test Certified versions for clients, we often will test everything we have (this could be 6-8 lenses) to arrive at a winner. Even the Schneider versions will have quite a bit of variety.

So I'm not saying the 28mm does not have merit, but - it's a very rare one that will look actually good and sharp at the edges, especially on full frame 645. It does still have a place in your bag if you're looking for scenic view reproduction, but the important sharp detailed elements are not needed at the edge of the frame.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Wayne Fox

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2018, 01:09:41 AM »

That's one lens I wish Phase would address with a new design.  I would really like a better lens in that focal length.

Maybe the only way to make it "good" would also make it huge, heavy and expensive.

The 28mm Rodenstock on the Cambo is sharp but I really fight lens cast.  Just don't have a good wide option for my IQ3 100.
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spassig

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2018, 11:32:59 AM »


Hi Jochen -

There are no available MTF's for the newer Schneider lenses (at least not available to me). I've tried. I do have some MTF's for the older Schneider 55mm/80mm/110mm lenses if you're interested.

I can send you the info if you like.
Hello Steve.
Thanks.
I will send an email

Jochen
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2018, 04:51:48 PM »


Definitely not a shutter shock issue (at least in my testing). The thing is, when you test a bunch of 28mm lenses, the optical differences really jump out. As in this one has a really crappy left side, this one has a really crappy right side, etc. When we test Certified versions for clients, we often will test everything we have (this could be 6-8 lenses) to arrive at a winner. Even the Schneider versions will have quite a bit of variety.

So I'm not saying the 28mm does not have merit, but - it's a very rare one that will look actually good and sharp at the edges, especially on full frame 645. It does still have a place in your bag if you're looking for scenic view reproduction, but the important sharp detailed elements are not needed at the edge of the frame.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Oh I agree that the lens is not as good as I wish it would be.  I was just reacting to your noticed difference between the LS and FPS versions.  Mine LS is definitely not sharp in any corner on an IQ3100 until I get to f/16 and by then you are already losing significantly to diffraction although the diffraction sharpening in C1P helps to some degree.
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2018, 04:52:27 PM »

That's one lens I wish Phase would address with a new design.  I would really like a better lens in that focal length.

Maybe the only way to make it "good" would also make it huge, heavy and expensive.

The 28mm Rodenstock on the Cambo is sharp but I really fight lens cast.  Just don't have a good wide option for my IQ3 100.
Agreed, wish it was 25mm though :)
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: PhaseOne lenses Schneider-Kreuznach vs PO
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2018, 05:46:55 PM »

Oh I agree that the lens is not as good as I wish it would be.  I was just reacting to your noticed difference between the LS and FPS versions.  Mine LS is definitely not sharp in any corner on an IQ3100 until I get to f/16 and by then you are already losing significantly to diffraction although the diffraction sharpening in C1P helps to some degree.


Yes, I just added the overall merit commentary because I often caution people about the lens, but I don't want to be too hard on the lens. just honest. I don't mean to leave the impression the lens completely sucks and no one would ever want to shoot with it, just that it won't satisfy someone looking for a wider version of the 35LS, for example. Maybe we'll see one in the future (I hope).


Steve Hendrix/CI
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