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Author Topic: Sony 400mm f2.8  (Read 1384 times)

149113

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2018, 10:35:08 PM »

I totally disagree.

Subject isolation is a key reason why people buy the f2.8 version of the 400mm and bokeh ends up occupying most of the image.

This is especially true for sports such as soccer where the background can be incredibly distracting.

This is coming from someone who owns a 400mm f2.8 btw.

Cheers,
Bernard

I also own a 400 2.8 (Canon non IS mk1) and I have been using it with the a9 and MB IV for months. I'll eventually get a Sony 400mm rental from Sony Pro services and test the two head to head but I will not be looking at bokeh as a deciding factor as to whether I sell the Canon and get the Sony. My decision will be based 100% on AF performance and sharpness wide open.
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Kirk_C

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2018, 11:49:29 PM »


yes... but what about the bokeh?

It'll be completely and utterly irrelevant to most viewing the pictures this lens was intended to take.

I completely agree. Bokeh will be discussed by a few in forums but there won't be a single editor at a sports, fashion or editorial desk even considering it.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2018, 09:26:27 PM »

I saw some criticism on FB about the bokeh but honestly I am not seeing much if any difference from Canon and Nikon lenses of the same focal length and the comments seemed to come from the same people that have been critical of Sony since it's entry into the market. Plus the very small number of people either buying or renting this lens are not basing their decision on something as esoteric as bokeh... 1. AF performance 2. Sharpness 3. Build and Durability 4. Weather Sealing 5. Pro Service & Support 6. Weight  ...... 99. Bokeh

I must be an exception then, because for me the order of importance is 1. AF performance, 2. Bokeh, 3. Weather sealing, 4. Sharpness, 5. Durability, 6. Weight,...

Images taken with such a lens are all about bokeh really. At the reproduction sizes most people use these lenses for, ISO 12,800 on a D5/1DxII/a9 is more than good enough and this means that f4 or f5.6 would be ok. The reason why we shoot f2.8 is because we want to isolate the subject over uncontrollable backgrounds, typically a crowd or ugly buildings. And the way they are rendered has a high impact on the look of images. To me that's the main reason why I shoot a FF camera and not a micro 4:3.

Nervous bokeh has a bad tendency to generate interferences with low res magazine print technologies and can be nearly painful to the eyes in some cases. I wouldn't want my images to be affected by that.

But anyway, it seems that this topic is a bit touchy, I'll leave it at that. ;)

This is an example of what I call a nice bokeh.



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 09:43:37 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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Kirk_C

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2018, 02:08:38 AM »

A quote from the page linked below.

"These wide open shots in particular display beautiful background separation, with lovely bokeh. For sports photographers, the quality of a lens' bokeh is obviously second to sharpness and AF performance, but lovely bokeh sure is nice to have.'

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/1870760563/first-impressions-sony-fe-400-f2-8-gm-oss?slide=2
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2018, 04:21:08 AM »

"These wide open shots in particular display beautiful background separation, with lovely bokeh. For sports photographers, the quality of a lens' bokeh is obviously second to sharpness and AF performance, but lovely bokeh sure is nice to have.'

Yes, I read that comment but I just don’t see the same in the samples, at least in some of them.

Now some situations can be challenging for any lens, so it’s hard to say. It may be ok, but it’s not a lens I would buy without renting it and doing some thorough testing. Since I would (will?) need a 400mm f2.8 if/when I switch to Sony I find that a bit annoying.

What is interesting is that most of the answers to my question were not “yes, I love this bokeh” or “no, it’s ugly”, but “bokeh is not important for such a lens”.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 04:35:02 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2018, 12:21:00 PM »

What is interesting is that most of the answers to my question were not “yes, I love this bokeh” or “no, it’s ugly”, but “bokeh is not important for such a lens”.
Actually, about half the replies have been along the lines of “about the same as the other 400/2.8s”, including three of the first four responses on bokeh.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2018, 12:57:36 PM »

Biggest most expensive “compact” lens I have ever heard of.
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Telecaster

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2018, 04:14:46 PM »

I love smooth & unobtrusive OOF areas as much as the next guy, but I also love weird bokeh.  :)  Haven't seen anything from the Sony, compared to its competitors, that would concern me in a photojourno context.

-Dave-
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2018, 06:19:54 PM »

This is an example of what I call a nice bokeh.

It's not a lens I can see myself ever buying, Bernard, so this topic is of very limited interest to me: but that's a damn fine shot.

Jeremy
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2018, 06:59:16 PM »

It's not a lens I can see myself ever buying, Bernard, so this topic is of very limited interest to me: but that's a damn fine shot.

Thanks Jeremy, very kind of you! :)

Cheers,
Bernard

degrub

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2018, 07:35:29 PM »

It's not a lens I can see myself ever buying, Bernard, so this topic is of very limited interest to me: but that's a damn fine shot.

Jeremy

and she was at full gallop ! Even the dirt spray is smooth !
i watched one of these horsemanship/warrior performances when i was up at Sendai many years ago. Remarkable skills.
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149113

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2018, 01:12:57 PM »

Yes, I read that comment but I just don’t see the same in the samples, at least in some of them.

Now some situations can be challenging for any lens, so it’s hard to say. It may be ok, but it’s not a lens I would buy without renting it and doing some thorough testing. Since I would (will?) need a 400mm f2.8 if/when I switch to Sony I find that a bit annoying.

What is interesting is that most of the answers to my question were not “yes, I love this bokeh” or “no, it’s ugly”, but “bokeh is not important for such a lens”.

Cheers,
Bernard

Until someone establishes an apples to apples comparison it is impossible to say how Nikon or Canon 400mm models would render the same shots. Matt Granger shot all three lenses at the event and I am challenged to find even the smallest difference in those shots - bokeh and all. Granted he was parsing out shots to each setup on an ad-hoc basis where conditions changed, but it's still the same approx time and place with similar lighting.

Sony deserves criticism where it's appropriate (MAP pricing, native lens cost, a-mount support, etc...), but lets not kid ourselves, this lens is major achievement. When Sony introduces the 600mm f4 and 500mm f4 they will have closed the long lens gap in the lineup. I would then expect to see a 300mm 2.8 and a zoom with a built in TC similar to what Canon and Nikon have. At that point they will have a lineup that is formidable.
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chez

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2018, 04:48:21 PM »

Until someone establishes an apples to apples comparison it is impossible to say how Nikon or Canon 400mm models would render the same shots. Matt Granger shot all three lenses at the event and I am challenged to find even the smallest difference in those shots - bokeh and all. Granted he was parsing out shots to each setup on an ad-hoc basis where conditions changed, but it's still the same approx time and place with similar lighting.

Sony deserves criticism where it's appropriate (MAP pricing, native lens cost, a-mount support, etc...), but lets not kid ourselves, this lens is major achievement. When Sony introduces the 600mm f4 and 500mm f4 they will have closed the long lens gap in the lineup. I would then expect to see a 300mm 2.8 and a zoom with a built in TC similar to what Canon and Nikon have. At that point they will have a lineup that is formidable.

Personally I find the Sony along with all other lenses available for the e-mount very formidable for my needs as I never would shoot with the big telephotos. These large expensive lenses service a very small niche market, to the point that Sony will build to order the 400mm.
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Kirk_C

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2018, 11:40:18 PM »

These large expensive lenses service a very small niche market, to the point that Sony will build to order the 400mm.

You mean after they're sold a couple hundred world wide at the initial release and have a back stock they'll manage production numbers to meet demand. All manufacturers do that.
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chez

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2018, 08:23:13 AM »

You mean after they're sold a couple hundred world wide at the initial release and have a back stock they'll manage production numbers to meet demand. All manufacturers do that.

No, my understanding is when you order one, they'll build it for you.
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NancyP

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2018, 03:07:26 PM »

Bernard, your bokeh love seems very Japanese. At times, do you value subtle intangibles in rendering over perfect sharpness?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2018, 05:53:20 PM »

Bernard, your bokeh love seems very Japanese. At times, do you value subtle intangibles in rendering over perfect sharpness?

Nancy,

Yes, I do. But in fact recent Nikon lenses (including the 4 years old current 400mm f2.8 E FL) manage to combine both remarkable sharpness and beautiful bokeh.

I just hope that the same can be said of this new Sony.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 06:33:23 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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Kirk_C

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2018, 11:19:43 PM »

No, my understanding is when you order one, they'll build it for you.

I think you're going to see it as an in-stock item at several retailers for the first year at least. Then when demand drops, if it does, they'll build a number of them to have on hand for backup of their pro services. I seriously doubt it will come down to a build to order but I could be wrong. Typically the production workforce is re-tasked only when there is back stock.
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eronald

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2018, 07:23:21 AM »

Nancy,

Yes, I do. But in fact recent Nikon lenses (including the 4 years old current 400mm f2.8 E FL) manage to combine both remarkable sharpness and beautiful bokeh.

I just hope that the same can be said of this new Sony.

Cheers,
Bernard

Regarding bokeh I compared my old Canon 1.8 and the current Nikon and Canon 200 and the old one wins. If Bokeh or tele sharpness and fast focus is what one wants then I don't think the camera system should make the choice, one should get the lens and use an old-generation pro body to drive it.

I have a 200/1.8 Canon, I've compared it to the other 200mm lenses out there, it clearly does better. I think the lens will outlive me, or at least outlive my ability to handhold long lenses. I think that with a teleconverter it can make a decently fast and sharp 300 or 400, but I don't have a use for those.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 07:26:39 AM by eronald »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony 400mm f2.8
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2018, 09:58:42 AM »

Regarding bokeh I compared my old Canon 1.8 and the current Nikon and Canon 200 and the old one wins. If Bokeh or tele sharpness and fast focus is what one wants then I don't think the camera system should make the choice, one should get the lens and use an old-generation pro body to drive it.

I have a 200/1.8 Canon, I've compared it to the other 200mm lenses out there, it clearly does better. I think the lens will outlive me, or at least outlive my ability to handhold long lenses. I think that with a teleconverter it can make a decently fast and sharp 300 or 400, but I don't have a use for those.

Yes, it’s interesting that Canon regressed on that one. I have seen beautiful results from the 200mm f1.8.

Cheers,
Bernard
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