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Author Topic: Observer's view  (Read 1648 times)

mecrox

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2018, 10:52:28 AM »


1.  No, I don't think many non-Americans ever imagined that the US of A had a wonderful world view. What we did imagine was that it was the land of enterprise, where the belief was that success lay in one's own hands, to achieve or not to achieve. Of course, it could have been an innocent assumption born of Hollywood. I'm told that many British women married UK-based GIs in the vain expectation of ending up in Beverly Hills only to discover that back at the ranch there wasn't really anything at all.

2.  Hardly; Mrs T was the daughter of a shopkeeper. All she was espousing and generating was the value of self-reliance and the taking of responsibility for one's own life. Remove that, and you have created the "entitlement generation". That's predicated on the assumption that somebody else will permanently pull your chestnuts out of the fire for you. Trouble is, it's never made clear who that somebody else is going to be, and from whence will flow the money that's going to be lavished upon you by the imaginary, devoted, bigger brother you never met.

;-)

Chances are she was just channelling Rand, Hayek even Greenspan and others for whom the success of the individual is all that matters. If you are poor then that’s a choice: you simply didn’t want to be successful enough. And almost nothing - whether poverty, inequality, healthcare, education or culture - should be allowed to impinge on the right of the successful to be even more successful.

In fact we now know that humans evolved to cooperate in groups and that there is a constant tussle in our psyche between serving the group (altruism) and getting ahead in the group (selfishness). It’s just how we’re wired up. Anything which tries to pretend otherwise is going to end in tears. All we’re seeing now is the endgame of the latest experiment in living a lie, in this case neoliberalism. We are social beings through and through.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 12:21:31 PM by mecrox »
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RSL

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2018, 10:52:55 AM »

I suspect I just wanted to receive more of your troll-like posts for which you have been reported.

ADDED:  I shall ignore every one of your comments going forward and not respond.

It's a terrible temptation, Alan, to say, "that's a relief." But I don't want to be snarky, so I won't say that.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2018, 11:46:12 AM »

Can you direct me to a post where Jeremy stated this “pestering”? It is entirely possible. I honestly don’t know so I’m asking as that data would be useful for me to understand several “issues” in this forum. TIA!
The recently closed down thread by Jeff Schewe that both you and I contributed to.
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Rob C

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2018, 12:29:03 PM »

Chances are she was just channelling Rand, Hayek even Greenspan and others for whom the success of the individual is all that matters. If you are poor then that’s a choice: you simply didn’t want to be successful enough, etc. In fact we now know from science that humans evolved to cooperate in groups and that there is a constant tussle in our psyche between serving the group (altruism) and getting ahead (selfishness). It’s just how we’re wired up. Anything which tries to pretend otherwise is going to end in tears. All were seeing now is the endgame of the latest experiment in living a lie, in this case neoliberalism. We are social beings, not success-monsters.

I'm not Atlas and neither was Maggie; that said, conclusions such as those you have just attributed to "science" have the problem that results from inequality: the inequality of each and every human example of us. Consequently, I'd be reluctant to accept such scientific generalities as meaning all that much.

Insofar as being a " social being", I can think of few people further removed from that mould than myself. As I've pointed out before, having to work in a group of photographers is my current picture of hell. I am the last person that would sign on to any workshop or joint travel venture. I would feel miserable not being able to smile, jump into the car and get the hell away and back to my own world. 

So no, I don't accept at all the generalisation that that's just the way we are wired; yes, some surely do have that circuitry, but not I!

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2018, 01:18:15 PM »

...serving the group (altruism) and getting ahead in the group (selfishness)...

If the mankind hasn't been supporting getting ahead in the group, we would be still plowing fields with horses and wooden plows, as those "serving the group" still do. Or hunt our lunch with bow and arrow.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2018, 01:37:34 PM »

... I was hoping Rob would explain... how The Guardian among other perhaps is a 'mouthpiece for the left...

Since Andrew, apparently, only understands things on a literal level, here is the proof in a language closer to that level:

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2018, 02:03:17 PM »

Leave poor Jeremy in peace, on his beloved ice; there's absolutely nothing for him here on this thread about which to get excited. Heysoos, if every differing point of view requires a referee, we may a well close shop and go home and watch television.

Sadly, Rob, I'm off the ice and sweltering in an unusually sunny and very warm Manchester: the grass is going brown, and that's not a sight we see very often in this rain-sodden part of England. I'm beginning to think we're going to have a proper summer here, not the usual two hot days and a thunderstorm before autumn returns.

Your second sentence is quite right, however. As to the topic, I've read nothing here yet which offends against the principles I posted a few months ago.

A couple of points are worth making (as participant, in case anyone's in any doubt, not as moderator - and yes, I do feel I am able to combine the roles). The first is that the Guardian (or Grauniad, as many call it due to its recurrent misprints which sometimes extended even to its own name) is not publicly funded: it's a private enterprise and has been since it was founded in 1821 not far from where I live, as The Manchester Guardian. The second is that whether or not it can properly be described as a mouthpiece of the left, there is no doubt at all that its general political stance is very much to the left of centre.

Before anyone draws, or rather attempts to draw, any conclusions about my own political leanings, I should say that I read The Times, The Guardian, The Telegraph and The Daily Mash pretty much every day and sometimes, but only when I'm really bored, The Independent.

Jeremy
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 02:13:02 PM by Jeremy Roussak »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2018, 02:32:47 PM »

JNB_Rare

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2018, 02:41:32 PM »

If the mankind hasn't been supporting getting ahead in the group, we would be still plowing fields with horses and wooden plows, as those "serving the group" still do. Or hunt our lunch with bow and arrow.

I would argue that the attributes which spawn invention and innovation are curiosity and resourcefulness, rather than ambition and greed.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2018, 02:55:59 PM »

... Define the left..

Another contribution to the definition:

OmerV

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2018, 03:20:03 PM »

Another contribution to the definition:

Slobodan, where did you get the statement above the photo? It is not in the article accompanying that photo.

PS I have a subscription to NYT.

digitaldog

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2018, 03:41:04 PM »

The recently closed down thread by Jeff Schewe that both you and I contributed to.
Sorry, cannot find it. Maybe that’s why Alan didn’t answer my question.
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2018, 03:43:26 PM »

Another contribution to the definition:
Nope!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition
Generally, a definition delimits or describes the meaning of a concept or term.
You can only write in Metaphors it seems.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 03:46:36 PM by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2018, 04:01:59 PM »

Slobodan, where did you get the statement above the photo? It is not in the article accompanying that photo.

PS I have a subscription to NYT.
Here is the link to the article and contributors to this forum can judge for themselves whether the one who posted the photo was being truthful:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/white-minority-population.html
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digitaldog

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2018, 04:05:19 PM »

Here is the link to the article and contributors to this forum can judge for themselves whether the one who posted the photo was being truthful:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/white-minority-population.html
My judgement is fake news definition. More of the usual hypocrisy from the same side.
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Andrew Rodney
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2018, 04:16:03 PM »

Here is the link to the article and contributors to this forum can judge for themselves whether the one who posted the photo was being truthful:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/white-minority-population.html

Are you saying that I am lying?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 05:41:55 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2018, 04:19:32 PM »

Slobodan, where did you get the statement above the photo?...

Omer,

This is a snapshot from a Facebook post from one of my FB friends on the left. I cut his/her name out, as it would not be fair to them. This, by the way, is not the first time I hear that sentiment in Facebook posts.

Reposting to include recognizable FB elements:
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 04:26:31 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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digitaldog

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2018, 04:19:43 PM »

I you saying that I am lying? That would be a new low for you.
Are you being truthful, can you prove to those asking about the photo YOU posted the question asked about the photo.
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2018, 04:44:31 PM »

Are you saying that I am lying? That would be a new low for you.
True fact:  The caption above the photograph was never part of the story and a true journalist would have made that clear.  It only was in a subsequent post that you identify it as coming from a friend's Facebook post.  Your original post should have cropped the caption out or identified it as somebody's (unidentified) comment.   Please show me where I stated that you are lying.  I'm stating in this post that what you did was pretty sloppy and I think your subsequent post points that out.
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OmerV

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Re: Observer's view
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2018, 04:53:40 PM »

My judgement is fake news definition. More of the usual hypocrisy from the same side.
Are you being truthful, can you prove to those asking about the photo YOU posted the question asked about the photo.
Are you saying that I am lying? That would be a new low for you.

Whoa guys, slow down. This is a forum, not a scientific publication. I asked Slobodan and he was kind enough to answer. Not a problem.

Phew, enough said, eh?
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