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Author Topic: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne  (Read 2167 times)

Doug Peterson

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2018, 03:59:25 PM »

the H6D has a best in class touch UI...

Thanks for catching my error. That was meant to be under the XF not the IQ.

The XF touch screen is quite handy especially for accessing advanced settings. For example to set the max-slowest shutter speed for Aperture Priority mode you tap on the shutter speed.



Finally, the XF is an excellent tripod camera but I find the H6D superior for handheld shooting thanks to its more compact, lighter body and superior mirror damping.

I'd say 2/3rds of our clients are using the XF handheld all or most of the time. Personally I use it handheld 90+ percent of the time. A lot of our tripod shooters are actually using a technical camera, thanks to the excellent workflow ease and hardware integration P1 maintains with technical cameras.

The H6D-100C is 2130g with an HC 80mm lens and batteries and card.
The XF IQ1 100 is 2638g with an 80mm Schneider LS Blue Ring and batteries and card.

So the H6D is ~80% the weight of the XF IQ1.

Most of the difference is because of the larger/brighter viewfinder of the XF and the use of more metal in the body.

If you're looking to shed a few ounces from the IQ and don't need fast flash sync with strobe then you could change the standard Viewfinder to a Waist Level Viewfinder and 80mm LS BR for an 80mm D which drops ~350g respectively and ~200g to a total of 2088g (you could also switch the hassy viewfinder to make it ~200g lighter for a total of 1930g).

Size wise the two systems are extremely similar. The XF is about ~0.5 inches wider and they are within a few mm of the same height and depth.

Of course, everyone is welcome to their own opinion as to which fits their hand better, which user interface they find more intuitive, and how much priority to assign the difference in weight/size.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 04:12:42 PM by Doug Peterson »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2018, 05:26:13 PM »

"2nd tier" is, I guess, meant to be a derogatory comment? The penultimate Bugatti is still a pretty freaking amazing car, even if it has a handful fewer bells and whistles than the top-of-the-line Bugatti.

The list of technical features and advantages I provided, compared to an H6D-100c was for an XF IQ1 kit, as was the price. I don't think the H6D-100c really compares to an IQ1, but it's the closest Hasselblad has, so it's what I compared to.

If we were comparing to an XF IQ3 we would add the following additional advantages compared to the H6D-100c:
- 5 year warranty on all components with loaner provided during any service of any component
- Zone System exposure heat map
- Long Exposure Calculator
- Sensor temperature monitor readout

Notably the IQ3 price is with your choice of Blue Ring lens so using the 80mm as your choice would be quite silly since it's the least expensive lens. This is a great example of why you should be working with a professional, dedicated, experienced dealer. It makes me sad to think of someone buying an IQ3 kit with an 80mm lens.


Doug, you forgot to mention the Electronic Shutter, which, combined with the Vibration Delay Mode of the XF Camera, virtually removes all internal as well as external vibration factors. Or if you didn't, I missed seeing it.

Bernard, for a technical camera shooter, having an electronic shutter is a huge advantage.

My take on the comparative UI for the H6D and IQ/XF systems is that with the H6D, Hasselblad has created an extremely easy and intuitive interface. Seemingly more so than the IQ/XF. However, I feel that perception is colored by the fact there are more features and capabilities with an IQ/XF system than an H6D system. Just for image review alone, there are many more options and capabilities (2 step highlight warning, complete zone system readout, focus mask, etc.). The H6D UI seems simple because it is simple (relative to an IQ/XF). If you want more capability, you may have to sacrifice some simplicity. But I still find the IQ/XF UI is very easily navigateable - even 7+ years after the initial IQ interface was first revealed - and have no complaints from users (some suggestions, to be sure). I think it is safe to say that the respective UI for both Hasselblad and Phase One systems is outstanding.


Steve Hendrix/CI

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yaya

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2018, 12:31:05 PM »

Most of the difference is because of the larger/brighter viewfinder of the XF and the use of more metal in the body.

Plus a built in radio transmitter for flash and a body ruggedly designed to take a V-grip. And the 2 batteries that allow the body and back to work independently and add longevity...
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BJL

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2018, 01:05:45 PM »

Slightly off topic: are there any Hasselblad dealers active in the LuLa forums?

(See the three previous posts.)
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2018, 02:01:56 PM »

Slightly off topic: are there any Hasselblad dealers active in the LuLa forums?

(See the three previous posts.)


On Lula, none that I'm aware of. Occasionally you will see contributions from Steve Goldsmith, the great Paul Claessen, and my long time friend Eric Peterson (all of whom are employed by Hasselblad USA), but I don't know of any active dealers who contribute, at least not regularly. On GetDPI, there have been some posts from Denny at Dodd Camera, an excellent resource for Hasselblad products.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Joe Towner

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2018, 02:20:52 PM »

It makes me sad to think of someone buying an IQ3 kit with just an 80mm lens.

Fixed it for ya Doug  ;D

There is nothing 2nd tier about an IQ1,  It's just what fits you as a photographer, between the price, the feel in hand, and the feature set.  We live in an amazing time, and having PhaseOne and Hasselblad push back and forth against each other really does benefit us all.  I will say the Phase dealers have more stuff going on as to product education & information.

As to Hass people on this forum, there are a few Hass techs that pop up every once in a while or chime in as they see fit.  This thread isn't a great example thread, and I question my stepping back into it.
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Steve Goldsmith

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2018, 04:33:55 PM »

Doug,

I was not using 2nd tier as a derogatory term, I was simply stating that Phase One offers different tiers of backs with different feature sets, ie IQ1, IQ2, IQ3.
Since all 3 lines of backs are still availalble I was simply trying to clarify the Phase One offerings and price structure.
Please do not put words into my mouth or make assumptions as to my intentions.

As far as the lens, do you consider the 80mm Blue Ring lens to be inferior, you picked it for the IQ1 comparison pricing, I was only following your lead.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2018, 07:57:27 AM »

As far as the lens, do you consider the 80mm Blue Ring lens to be "inferior", you picked it for the IQ1 comparison pricing, I was only following your lead.

No, Steve, I do not consider the 80mm Blue Ring to be inferior.

The IQ1 series kit comes with a Schneider 80mm LS Blue Ring lens.

The IQ3 series kit comes with your choice of lens.

The Schneider 80mm LS Blue Ring lens is the least expensive lens in the lineup.

Therefore most IQ3 clients are better off selecting some lens other than the Schneider 80mm LS Blue Ring.

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2018, 11:03:51 AM »

Doug,

I was not using 2nd tier as a derogatory term, I was simply stating that Phase One offers different tiers of backs with different feature sets, ie IQ1, IQ2, IQ3.
Since all 3 lines of backs are still availalble I was simply trying to clarify the Phase One offerings and price structure.
Please do not put words into my mouth or make assumptions as to my intentions.

As far as the lens, do you consider the 80mm Blue Ring lens to be inferior, you picked it for the IQ1 comparison pricing, I was only following your lead.


Steve -

The 80mm lens has 2 strikes against it.

A) It is the proverbial kit lens.
B) It is a normal view prime lens.

Kit lenses have a reputation as the weakest lens (think consumer level ultra wide to super tele plastic zooms). This is not fair as some kit lenses are actually quite good.

Normal view primes are often the least expensive lenses in any lineup. Further, on a crop sensor, the 80mm becomes a long normal (63mm equivalent). Personally I much prefer a wide-ish normal to a long-ish normal.

As a result of all of this, 80mm lenses are common on the 2nd hand market, and the price is often 30% (or thereabouts) of new. What Doug is alluding to is that if you're able to swap out an 80mm for another prime lens, you'll get much greater value swapping the lens, considering how cheaply you can pick up an 80mm lens 2nd hand.

This is the case for Hasselblad and Phase One both, as well you should know. I've sold CPO Hasselblad 80mm HC Lenses for as low as $900, and we currently have a batch of Phase One/Schneider 80mm lenses in that same price range. It's a shame (or an opportunity, depending how you look at it) because in both cases, I find the 80mm lenses from Hasselblad and Phase One to be optically excellent, fast, and compact.


Steve Hendrix/CI
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 11:33:42 AM by Steve Hendrix »
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Steve Goldsmith

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2018, 11:45:41 AM »

Steve & Doug,

I am not sure how this got into a discussion of merits or lack of on 80mm lenses.
I simply used the same configuration for the IQ3 system that Doug had put forth for both the H6D-100c & IQ150 system.
I wanted an apples to apples comparison, nothing more.

Really shocked at how this has taken such a crazy turn on what is really just a very simple comparison of 3 different excellent camera systems.

-Steve
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Steve Goldsmith
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2018, 03:41:44 PM »

Steve & Doug,

I am not sure how this got into a discussion of merits or lack of on 80mm lenses.
I simply used the same configuration for the IQ3 system that Doug had put forth for both the H6D-100c & IQ150 system.
I wanted an apples to apples comparison, nothing more.

Really shocked at how this has taken such a crazy turn on what is really just a very simple comparison of 3 different excellent camera systems.

-Steve


Steve -

You asked if the 80mm lens is inferior. I answered you with full information on the nature of that lens and the topic of kit lenses in general (for both Phase and Hasselblad). Hopefully this information is helpful to others as well.

What’s the problem?


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jduncan

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2018, 06:09:06 PM »

My view:
- IQ1 are cheaper version from which some functions were removed to lower the price point to remain competitive with Hasselblad without madening too much existing IQ3 customers
- the 100mp versions are based on the true MF 54x41mm sensor

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi,
Just to clarify and avoid misunderstandings"
The  54x41mm chip is not "a true medium format more than the other chip, it's just bigger. Medium format is a catch category": Bigger than  35mm smaller than  4 by 5 inches.
For a very long time, the most popular MF cameras used  56 x 56mm and the  6 x7 cm film format.
But it's true that the H6D-100c and the IQ3-100 have bigger sensors than the  X1D and the Fuji.

By the way, the bigger sensor is more advanced and is in general better, even without taking into account the size.

Best regards,

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jduncan

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2018, 06:26:35 PM »

Doug,

Many good points here, but the H6D has a best in class touch UI that I personally find superior to that of the IQ.

Pricewise I believe that you should compare both top ends with tech camera capabilities and the H6D should, therefore, be compared to the IQ3.

Finally, the XF is an excellent tripod camera but I find the H6D superior for handheld shooting thanks to its more compact, lighter body and superior mirror damping.

Cheers,
Bernard

I fully agree, and it's easy to compile a list of missing features of the other platform, at least in MF were more cameras are basically Science projects. Tha will include 1/2000 sync, true focus,  Ultra focus,  Capture from live view,  USB-C,  Video, Integrated WiFI etc.

So be aware of vendors with lists  :) The IQ3 has many of the features I listed, just of the top of my mind, but the price is quite different.

Best regards, 
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Steve Goldsmith

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2018, 06:33:28 PM »

Steve,

My question about the 80mm lens was soley based on the following comment from Doug

“It makes me sad to think of someone buying an IQ3 kit with an 80mm lens.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 03:55:07 PM by Doug Peterson »”

Again, I will ask you to not put words into my mouth or make assumtions as to my statements

-Steve
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2018, 09:22:57 PM »

Steve,

My question about the 80mm lens was soley based on the following comment from Doug

“It makes me sad to think of someone buying an IQ3 kit with an 80mm lens.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 03:55:07 PM by Doug Peterson »”

Again, I will ask you to not put words into my mouth or make assumtions as to my statements

-Steve



As far as the lens, do you consider the 80mm Blue Ring lens to be inferior, you picked it for the IQ1 comparison pricing, I was only following your lead.


You asked if the Schneider 80mm lens was inferior. I gave you an objective answer detailing the nature of that lens. How is that putting words in your mouth?


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2018, 09:39:31 PM »

The  54x41mm chip is not "a true medium format more than the other chip, it's just bigger. Medium format is a catch category": Bigger than  35mm smaller than  4 by 5 inches.
For a very long time, the most popular MF cameras used  56 x 56mm and the  6 x7 cm film format.

True, but at least the 54x41 is very close to one of the sizes that used to be called MF in the film days (645). The 33x44 is somewhere below that.

But more importantly, I just don't see enough look difference between 33x44 and 24x36 when a given lens is used.

Words do matter because I feel that a large part of buyers of system using the 33x44 chip invest in it because it is called MF digital and by that a jump of quality "into a different league" is implied that I personally find a bit misguiding.

Cheers,
Bernard

jensputzier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2018, 03:46:31 AM »

True, but at least the 54x41 is very close to one of the sizes that used to be called MF in the film days (645). The 33x44 is somewhere below that.

But more importantly, I just don't see enough look difference between 33x44 and 24x36 when a given lens is used.

Words do matter because I feel that a large part of buyers of system using the 33x44 chip invest in it because it is called MF digital and by that a jump of quality "into a different league" is implied that I personally find a bit misguiding.

Cheers,
Bernard

When I was younger MF meant to me either 6x6 or 6x7. 645 was already kind of smaller MF and it took the square format out of MF. For me always a square 6x6 slide or negative was impressive as it differed in format and size from the 24x36 films.


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