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Author Topic: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?  (Read 1769 times)

wallpaperviking

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Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« on: May 24, 2018, 03:59:07 AM »

Just saw this video on the Hasselblad site and at about the 1.20 mark, he states that he had his lab do a print and that it was able to resolve better than those from his film 8 x 10 camera....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=60&v=1BplS1MmZXk

Anybody shooting with either the X1D or GFX and care to comment? 

I still think the prints I have seen from 8 x 10 negatives are the absolute ultimate to my eyes but would be interested to know what others thought.. :)
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2018, 04:15:17 AM »

I still think the prints I have seen from 8 x 10 negatives are the absolute ultimate to my eyes but would be interested to know what others thought.. :)

I think this is a bit over-optimistic.

Even my H6D-100c may not be totally up to 8x10.

On the other hand I have quite a few 2m wide prints from stitches in the hundreds of megapixel shot with DSLRs mostly, and that is significantly ahead of 8x10. I would probably position 8x10 done perfectly at 150~200 megapixels?

Now, the reality is that, with the 100mp backs, it is incredibly easy to get consistently levels of resolution close to 8x10 perfectly executed (meaning shot at optimal aperture with movements and with the handful of modern lenses covering 8x10 with movement). So if you take the average of 8x10 images, the actual level of resolution is probably significantly lower than the few perfect frames.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bo_Dez

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2018, 06:30:21 AM »

Resolution of detail is only one ingredient that makes up the cake of image quality.

It's probably something that isn't wrong within certain perimeters.
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pschefz

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2018, 12:09:21 PM »

i have a friend who frequently shoots 8x10 right now and he put my GFX right next to it for comparison....
there is no straight answer, if you are looking for one, i would say no, it does not out resolve 8x10 but things aren't that easy and there are a lot of variables, scanning probably being the most important one.....but a crappy processing job on the 8x10 film can throw things off as well....
a well shot, processed, scanned 8x10 still beats a 50mpix sensor....and it is pretty clear actually....
it definitely looks different anyway and going to 100 or 200 mpix wont really change that....
the crazy thing is that you can walk around with a X1D or GFX and keep shooting 4x5 quality in point and shoot size and ease....and that does not even consider the difference in price....
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2018, 02:40:27 PM »

There isn't one answer to that. Factors include:
- 8x10 captured in a rigerously setup studio experiment, or 8x10 captured in the field under normal environmental conditions?
- 8x10 black and white or 8x10 color? Which emulsions?
- 8x10 scanned using 20 year old legacy technology like a flatbed or drum scanner, or an 8x10 scanned using a modern film scanner?
- "resolve" meaning being able to identify a subject (e.g. read a license plate or a test chart) or "resolve" meaning beautifully reproduce on a really large print?

As a point of reference we don't sell the GFX or X1D, but we do sell both a 50mp and 100mp camera and when someone comes to us shooting 8x10 film they almost always end up buying an IQ3 100mp Trichromatic rather than a 50mp model; there were various reasons people shot 8x10 film but one of the most common was that they wanted the absolute best image quality regardless of weight or cost. Today, I'd argue strongly, that is an IQ3 100mp Trichromatic with a tech camera and Rodenstock HR or XF with Blue Ring Schneider lenses. But, then, I'm hugely biased  ;D.

hubell

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2018, 02:50:27 PM »

Resolution of detail is only one ingredient that makes up the cake of image quality.

It's probably something that isn't wrong within certain perimeters.

I agree. It all depends upon what you are shooting and what you are looking at/for in the print. Who did the scanning and how? Who did the printing and with what materials? Color or black and white? So, no clear answer. However there is no question but that the photographer in the video, Stephen Shore, one of the most acclaimed color photographers of all time, looks much happier at age 70 walking around shooting with his X1D than the 8x10 he used to shoot with.
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stevenfr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2018, 02:58:31 PM »

I agree with Bernard. i think the 100 mp chip is close to 8x10, it may be that 150mp equals 8x10. There are so many factors involved in comparing. Just my two cents to this discussion.

I am stitching images for the panoramic format using the Phase One XF IQ3 100 and getting files sizes approaching 5 GB un uprezzed. These files have incredible detail and colour smoothness almost film like. I used to shoot my panoramics with a Horseman 617 with Velvia 50 film with three lenses.

The larger file size has allowed me to broaden the market for my work. This week we just sold 3 wall mural size prints. It is a market where the client knows they are getting files sizes that can stand up to the enlargements. For me in the field it had opened up new possibilities for imagery with the flexibility to stitch to create the composition I want using 6 different lenses ranging from 35mm to 240mm. With the Horseman I was limited to 72, 110 and 180mm.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 06:32:48 PM by stevenfr »
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eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2018, 03:00:28 PM »

Just saw this video on the Hasselblad site and at about the 1.20 mark, he states that he had his lab do a print and that it was able to resolve better than those from his film 8 x 10 camera....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=60&v=1BplS1MmZXk

Anybody shooting with either the X1D or GFX and care to comment? 

I still think the prints I have seen from 8 x 10 negatives are the absolute ultimate to my eyes but would be interested to know what others thought.. :)

Anyone who thinks that 8x10 is outclassed by a Hassy is a good target for DJI's sales drones  :)

Edmund
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pschefz

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2018, 08:52:33 PM »

i hope everybody watched this video much more interesting....
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Juanito

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2018, 09:49:57 PM »

As an absolute matter, I'm sure the answer is no. An 8x10 sheet of film contains way more information than a 50 mp sensor. But as a practical matter, as others have pointed out, it's a much closer ball game. There's many factors that prevent the full potential of an 8x10 film sheet from fully expressing itself on a finished print. With the 8x10, there's so many variables that can affect the final outcome: the image lighting, the sharpness, camera shake, scanning, printing, lens choice, the printing process (optical printing has its own set of issues). With digital, it's a much straighter path from capture to output. The X1D lenses are amazingly sharp - much sharper than older generations of lenses that you're likely to find on film cameras.

Recently I took in the Stephen Shore exhibition at MOMA. They had a gallery filled with his 16x20 sized prints from his 8x10. There was nothing in these prints that couldn't have been duplicated with a 40 or 50 mp MF camera. On the other hand, I also saw Gursky's most recent show at Gagosian in NYC. I assume that he's shooting those 10 by 20 foot prints with an 8x10. Whatever he's using, he's wringing everything possible out of his image - from capture to printing. No way can a 50 mp camera match that.

Juanito

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2018, 10:19:13 PM »

Since we're on the topic of Stephen Shore, there's this video from Hasselblad where he claims that "the work from this camera (the X1D) is more highly resolved than my 8x10 camera." Hmmm.... Stephen Shore Talking About the X1D

pschefz

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 10:43:37 PM »

On the other hand, I also saw Gursky's most recent show at Gagosian in NYC. I assume that he's shooting those 10 by 20 foot prints with an 8x10. Whatever he's using, he's wringing everything possible out of his image - from capture to printing. No way can a 50 mp camera match that.
i think gursky shoots digital exclusively these days....he even blows shots from his iPhone up to gigantic....but his shots are heavily manipulated, stitched together, adjusted, altered....Rhein II is not a straight photograph
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2018, 08:24:49 AM »

Steven Shore is a living legend and the real deal.

I think his comment is more in comparison with his own work with large format. But for context, that was mostly in the 70's and 80's.

I've always felt that 60MP was similar to large format, being somewhere in between 4x5 and 10x8 for some things.

Either way, he has near large format in a tiny camera. What's not to love?
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2018, 02:20:17 PM »

I agree. It all depends upon what you are shooting and what you are looking at/for in the print. Who did the scanning and how? Who did the printing and with what materials? Color or black and white? So, no clear answer. However there is no question but that the photographer in the video, Stephen Shore, one of the most acclaimed color photographers of all time, looks much happier at age 70 walking around shooting with his X1D than the 8x10 he used to shoot with.


And also, which film?

And yes, there are many factors, but due to the size of the negative, I always presume people are indicating resolution as the criteria. At that point, I have no doubt that a quality 8x10 film capture, scanned with a quality device, will ultimately be able to fulfill a higher resolution/scale than a 50mp digital capture device.

As to any other image qualifications, that is far murkier.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Rob C

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2018, 03:22:39 PM »

If you want to bring in the variable of scanning, you have already blown the comparison.

Should you want to see the best from an 8x10 film, then you have got to see it printed wet, on WSG paper. Well glazed.

As others have pointed out, the advantage of size is tonality. Lenses can, I suppose, affect tonality to a degree, but it's the magic of printing and developing a wet print that makes it what it is.

The clinical truth lies in the comparison between the best of a wet process with the best of a digital process. Implicit in that, the fact that you simply have to ignore things like micro-management of burning in and holding back where digital become superior by dint of being a mechanical process rather than one of the abilities of hand and eye and sixth sense.

I'd suggest the two processes have become so different that comparison is pretty meaningless.

BAB

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2018, 03:28:21 PM »

It is more of a question of what do you want your workflow to entail? Digital has solved the element of time vs PP and film has not. Film to me has a look that if exposed, scanned or printed correctly is unique unto itself. But digital also has a look not easily achieved with film, at the end of the day you can get there going down both roads. Kudos to those who still shoot film its a novel concept (and a never ending discussion) although tempting one that I will never revisit again.
PS Bless those who like me still make large prints!
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Geods

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2018, 09:48:46 PM »

The fact that this is even being discussed is indicative that a Handheld MF camera is competitive with 8x10. Probably one of the greatest benefits of the X1D are its lenses, which have been designed with 100MP sensors in mind and have already been tested as outstanding on a 50MP sensor.  When I shot 8x10, I didn’t use the finest glass except, perhaps, for the Schneider 210XL, which was capable of MF resolution on 11x14 film. As such, I likely didn’t get the most out of the format. I still think that my 8x10 work resolved over 100MP. That said, I will be interested in the 100MP X1D when it is released, as I believe it will be good enough from an image quality standpoint and clearly superior in every other way.
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wallpaperviking

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2018, 01:21:19 AM »


Amazing responses, thanks so much!  Always good to hear others thoughts and opinions :)
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adriantyler

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2018, 06:01:27 AM »

i hope everybody watched this video much more interesting....

thank you! nice one!
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Rob C

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2018, 11:56:05 AM »

i hope everybody watched this video much more interesting....

I'm four days late to Stephen's party: when I checked in they'd all gone home though I don't think Stephen'd noticed; what did I miss?

;-)

Rob
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