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Author Topic: Is ETTR still worth it?  (Read 2811 times)

Garnick

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2018, 12:33:17 PM »

Ah well us mere mortals will to keep ETTR just below the clipping of those imperfect jpeg screens!  :o 8)

Interestingly I have tended to go +⅓ for all my quick shots as suggested above with some success... It's just the skies where I have to be more careful.

Yes, I have the meter set at +1/3 as well, but if in doubt I do bracket.  I've never run out of camera card space nor HDD space, so that part is always covered.  The other alternative is to spot meter the scene when possible, but always, ALWAYS, check the Histogram and then wok from there. 

Gary
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2018, 01:08:31 PM »

I know precisely how much raw headroom I have for my camera when I meter the reference in the scene, and I can compensate for the meter to get the desired, non-clipped but ETTRed raw exposure - 100 percent of the time the compensation involves adding light compared to the metered reading.  That is what I mean by overexposing - "over" meaning positive exposure compensation or adding light.  Not clipping a JPEG or a raw file, adding exposure compared to the meter.  You don't ignore the meter, you simply accept that it is lying and use your experience and understanding of your camera's raw capability to convert its lie into a useful reading.

The camera histogram is practically irrelevant for raw files, unless pains are taken to manipulate it with crafty camera settings like UniWB, etc..

If you ignore the meter reading, how do you set your exposure?

kirk

Thanks for confirming - this is what I thought you meant (my Reply #30 and the follow-ons). But I wouldn't go as far as to say the camera histogram is practically irrelevant for raw files. While flawed, I think it provides useful guidance provided we know its limitations and how to work around them.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2018, 02:25:05 PM »

Hi Jeremy,

I beg to differ.  ... Here's one of the sites you might find interesting, or not - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20proof%20is%20in%20the%20pudding.

Also a snippet from another site - "The idiom is usually stated the proof is in the pudding and means that the end result is the mark of the success or failure of one’s efforts or planning. The phrase may also be used in the past and future tenses: the proof will be/was in the pudding".

I prefer definition #2 from that site. I realise the your formulation is in common usage, but it's still meaningless.

Well Jeremy, it's the Victoria Day holiday weekend here in Canada, and I had nothing more pressing to do at this somewhat early time, so I hope this explanation will suffice.  Just a small break from the initial thread, and no more to be said about I'm sure.

Have a great day,

It isn't a holiday here (that's next Monday). I hope you had a good day too.

Jeremy
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2018, 03:39:45 PM »

Made my day! :-)
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BJL

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Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2018, 05:18:53 PM »

... I'd like to see the discussion move forward about why the camera manufacturers have not been providing raw histograms on their LCDs at the very least for the more professional models.
A speculation, it is because they believe that only a tiny fraction of even high-end camera users are interested, even if it is popular in certain circles. Some possible reasons for that belief:

- ETTR is irrelevant in many sorts of photography, such as almost anything with moving subjects or low light/action photography where inevitably the sensor will be exposed "far to the left".

- There are easier strategies that many photographers judge to be good enough for all practical IQ purposes, such as using a fixed 1/3 or 1/2 stop of overexposure (relative to what the light meter recommends for default JPEG conversions) or pushing the JPEG histogram to the right and then an extra 1/2 stop or so beyond.

- In almost any situation where ETTR can be done, so can exposure bracketing, and with a burst of 7 at 1/3 stop increments (2 stop range), one will probably be darned close to the ETTR ideal.

- The fact that they got good results without ETTR when using film leads many good photographers to conclude that it is at best of a small marginal value with today's digital sensors, given that noise levels are far lower than their filmic equivalents.


Another question: would a raw clipping indicator be enough, or an exposure metering display mode that shows how far below clipping the brightest pixels are?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2018, 05:29:03 PM »


...............

Another question: would a raw clipping indicator be enough, or an exposure metering display mode that shows how far below clipping the brightest pixels are?

A raw clipping indicator could be useful but less so than a histogram which shows not only whether clipping would occur, but also what proportion of image pixels would be affected.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2018, 05:43:01 PM »

A raw clipping indicator could be useful but less so than a histogram which shows not only whether clipping would occur, but also what proportion of image pixels would be affected.
And it would be easier to implement since they already have code for the processed file histogram. It's also more familiar to photographers.
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Rory

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2018, 06:18:58 PM »

A raw clipping indicator could be useful but less so than a histogram which shows not only whether clipping would occur, but also what proportion of image pixels would be affected.

But the histogram does not show you where the clipping is occurring.  For example, in harsh light, a face, hair and a light background may be clipped but you might only care about the face.  Another example - a yellow bird on a branch.  Both the yellow feathers and the branch may have clipping and the yellow feathers are only a small area in the image.  They will often require a much larger exposure adjustment to eliminate clipping than the branches, but that will not be evident in the histogram.
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BJL

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2018, 06:21:58 PM »

But the histogram does not show you where the clipping is occurring.
Yes; for me, highlight blinkies/zebras are more useful than either a histogram or a simple yes/no overexposure warning. So maybe my wish is for a version of such indications that is based on raw data.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2018, 06:38:48 PM »

Yes; for me, highlight blinkies/zebras are more useful than either a histogram or a simple yes/no overexposure warning. So maybe my wish is for a version of such indications that is based on raw data.
Blinkies would be good. Also, something like a slow blink that was recognizably different that indicates where the next stop of more exposure would clip but isn't currently clipping. That way you could eliminate moving up to clipping then backing off.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2018, 08:07:14 PM »

But the histogram does not show you where the clipping is occurring.  For example, in harsh light, a face, hair and a light background may be clipped but you might only care about the face.  Another example - a yellow bird on a branch.  Both the yellow feathers and the branch may have clipping and the yellow feathers are only a small area in the image.  They will often require a much larger exposure adjustment to eliminate clipping than the branches, but that will not be evident in the histogram.

I would care about any clipping. Smart histograms can indicate what colour is being clipped. And there is no reason why these options should be mutually exclusive - one can have both blinkies and a raw histogram - why not?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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David Sutton

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2018, 09:25:41 PM »

To the OP:
Hello François.
Short answer:
You need to do your own testing on your own camera. My workflow has certainly changed.
Long answer:
Six years ago when I was using a Canon camera I would religiously ETTR because I had to. The noise in the shadows could get very ugly. And the OOC jpegs weren't that useful.
Times have changed.
Because it is not an optical viewfinder, with a Fuji camera I use the viewfinder to gauge the exposure. When I can see detail in the highlights I press the shutter and let the shadows fall where they may. I don't refer to the histogram that much.
The OOC jpegs are fine for medium size prints. This is a great time saver when there is rush to get some initial work out.
Most of the files I send to Photoshop have not had the exposure, highlight recovery, saturation and clarity sliders touched in the raw converter. And sharpening is set to minimum. With this sensor, mostly I want to remove sharpness, not add it.
To my eye the result is better tonality and colour. I don't find raw files to be as malleable as many make out. Oh, and I almost never need to use noise reduction on photos shot under 1600 ISO (Standard Output Sensitivity). The shadow detail is just fine.
I'm not talking about those who post here, but in general most people lose detail and fine tonality in the three quarter tones and above due to their desire to avoid shadow noise. Think white horses or wedding dresses. You see it regularly in photographs. Those highlights really matter to the eye in a full tonal range image.
The saturation and colour in the highlights is often off as well due to the exposure and highlight recovery sliders altering their balance. In PV 2012 Lightroom in particular can do unpleasant things to the three quarter tones and above, sometimes without even moving the highlight recovery slider.
Try this for yourself to see if it matters for your camera and your processing method. Render out a file in PV 2012 where the highlight recovery slider has been used. Now go to Camera Calibration _ Process and change it to 2010. Adjust the highlights using only the exposure slider and render.
Compare the highlight tonality in both images.
David

Edit: Some time ago when I tried the above I could see a marked improvement in the rendering of clouds. I tried it last night on an image of a white horse and the highlight recovery slider in the latest process version gave a better rendering. Who knows, maybe it's camera/image dependent or maybe I've gone mad.  :)
Google brought up a link to Mike Johnston's article on tonal values in digital B&W here. Although I wouldn't go so far as to agree that "almost all digital B&W is like drinking rotten pond scum".
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 05:54:58 PM by David Sutton »
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Garnick

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2018, 07:52:58 AM »

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Even though a big part of my life has been spent dealing with negatives, they generally end up being positives -- gan

digitaldog

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2018, 08:12:57 AM »

But the histogram does not show you where the clipping is occurring. 
It most certainly can!


Everything you thought you wanted to know about Histograms

Another exhaustive 40 minute video examining:
What are histograms. In Photoshop, ACR, Lightroom.
Histograms: clipping color and tones, color spaces and color gamut.
Histogram and Photoshop’s Level’s command.
Histograms don’t tell us our images are good (examples).
Misconceptions about histograms. How they lie.
Histograms and Expose To The Right (ETTR).
Are histograms useful and if so, how?

Low rez (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjPsP4HhHhE
High rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Histogram_Video.mov
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Rory

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it? If so, why do all camera makers ignore it?
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2018, 09:18:53 AM »

It most certainly can!

The context is in-camera feedback.  Can you explain how the in-camera histogram shows where in the image will be clipped (in under 40 minutes) for all cases.  I provided examples where I do not think a histogram will reveal the clipping I am interested in, but where the blinkies work nicely.
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Rand47

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2018, 09:42:29 AM »

Quote
. . . and no more to be said about I'm sure.

You ain’t gettin’ off that easy.  As you say, language is fluid.  So word meanings drift, phrases get truncated in some way or other.  You know, like, OMG, “Him and me went to the mall.” 

But on a more serious note, there’s something else often expressed in the shift/drift/fluidity of language over time.  Philosophy.  Let’s take the “proof” being “in the eating” in the first instance.  The end product of some venture, the quality of it, is subject to evaluation and judgement by a value laden human agent.  The “aptness/truth” of the saying hangs upon an assumption that good pudding is obvious to the “average person” as a value judgement, a consensus.  This philosophical position sees the necessity for both process and agency as an adequate explanation for “the good ness (or not) of pudding.”  There are much deeper philosophical/worldview overtones, but we can leave those for now.

Now, “the proof is in the pudding” is another kettle of fish altogether.   The “proof” no longer needs any kind of agent to provide a value laden, and one might say ‘personal’ determination of pudding-goodness.  No, this version says the proof is in the pudding itself, independent of any kind of agent making an evaluation.  The goodness of the pudding is only determinable from the pudding itself, presumably the chemical makeup and characteristics of the pudding.  This shift in the phrase is HUGE and reflects the shift toward a materialist/naturalist/reductionist philosophical frame.

Rand

(PS - This is an attempt at humor, in case it isn’t obvious at first glance.)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 09:46:38 AM by Rand47 »
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Garnick

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2018, 01:12:28 PM »

You ain’t gettin’ off that easy.  As you say, language is fluid.  So word meanings drift, phrases get truncated in some way or other.  You know, like, OMG, “Him and me went to the mall.” 

But on a more serious note, there’s something else often expressed in the shift/drift/fluidity of language over time.  Philosophy.  Let’s take the “proof” being “in the eating” in the first instance.  The end product of some venture, the quality of it, is subject to evaluation and judgement by a value laden human agent.  The “aptness/truth” of the saying hangs upon an assumption that good pudding is obvious to the “average person” as a value judgement, a consensus.  This philosophical position sees the necessity for both process and agency as an adequate explanation for “the good ness (or not) of pudding.”  There are much deeper philosophical/worldview overtones, but we can leave those for now.

Now, “the proof is in the pudding” is another kettle of fish altogether.   The “proof” no longer needs any kind of agent to provide a value laden, and one might say ‘personal’ determination of pudding-goodness.  No, this version says the proof is in the pudding itself, independent of any kind of agent making an evaluation.  The goodness of the pudding is only determinable from the pudding itself, presumably the chemical makeup and characteristics of the pudding.  This shift in the phrase is HUGE and reflects the shift toward a materialist/naturalist/reductionist philosophical frame.

Rand

(PS - This is an attempt at humor, in case it isn’t obvious at first glance.)

Hi Rand,

Well, unfortunately the only sentence that made any sense to a linguistic deprived fool such as I, was the last one - "PS - This is an attempt at humor, in case it isn’t obvious at first glance".  If that isn't enough proof, cut into the pudding.  You'll find more there I'm sure  :)

Gary

 
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Rand47

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2018, 03:56:15 PM »

Hi Rand,

Well, unfortunately the only sentence that made any sense to a linguistic deprived fool such as I, was the last one - "PS - This is an attempt at humor, in case it isn’t obvious at first glance".  If that isn't enough proof, cut into the pudding.  You'll find more there I'm sure  :)

Gary

 

I guess you'll have to take my word for it that it's funny!  ;D  LOL   (You're in good company, I get a lot of groans from my philosopher friends.)

Rand
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Garnick

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2018, 07:48:47 AM »

I guess you'll have to take my word for it that it's funny!  ;D  LOL   (You're in good company, I get a lot of groans from my philosopher friends.)

Rand

Hmmm... My philosopher friends are all resting comfortably in their graves, so we don't communicate very often.  I think they're waiting for me to join them, but so far my stubborn demeanor has prevented me from doing so   :)

Isn't it interesting that such an innocent use of a phrase can sidetrack a thread in this way.  I do believe that we all need to take a break occasionally and back away from the technical aspects and try to manufacture a bit of a chuckle if possible.  However, I must admit that it was not my intent to do so when I used that phrase initially, in the way I have always heard it.  I totally agree with Jeremy that the version I used makes no sense whatsoever.  Again, the liquidity of language is at play I suppose.  Da proof is da proof.

I will now enjoy my morning java as I reread your ever so "humourous" former offering.  Wish me luck  ???

Gary     

   
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nirpat89

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Re: Is ETTR still worth it?
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2018, 10:39:20 AM »

Hmmm... My philosopher friends are all resting comfortably in their graves, so we don't communicate very often.  I think they're waiting for me to join them, but so far my stubborn demeanor has prevented me from doing so   :)

Isn't it interesting that such an innocent use of a phrase can sidetrack a thread in this way.  I do believe that we all need to take a break occasionally and back away from the technical aspects and try to manufacture a bit of a chuckle if possible.  However, I must admit that it was not my intent to do so when I used that phrase initially, in the way I have always heard it.  I totally agree with Jeremy that the version I used makes no sense whatsoever.  Again, the liquidity of language is at play I suppose.  Da proof is da proof.

I will now enjoy my morning java as I reread your ever so "humourous" former offering.  Wish me luck  ???

Gary     

 

If a word or a phrase is used wrongly by enough people for long enough time, it becomes right. 
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