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Author Topic: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk  (Read 1547 times)

Hans Kruse

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 05:08:42 PM »

Perhaps an overlooked advantage of mirrorless technology is that there is no mirror-slap to worry about in respect of image sharpness. I'm not sure whether the anti-shake technology looks after this in the mirror system cameras.

I don't think this is overlooked, but perhaps but some. The shutter shock were overlooked by several including Sony. I really like the fully electronic shutter in the D850 for long focal lengths where this is critical.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 05:09:32 PM »

Very, very hard to believe. These stops are shutter speed of course in this context. So let's say you were starting with 1/50th second (call it "50"), meaning that as we increment to 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 4800 makes 6.5 stops on top of 1/50th; so with that camera if I expose at 1.50th I'm getting the equivalent in apparent steadiness as if I were shooting at 1/4800th? Is this believable?
Only with the lenses listed by Pana that can support their dual technology. On movie it's as steady as a gimball and therefore avoids the need for it. It is really really impressive, a game changer for the hybrid user, but won't work with any lens. I think that with a non certified lens you get about max 5 but more likely a little less however I haven't tried with an Oly glass for ex.
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David Watson

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 05:15:18 PM »

A few weeks ago it was all about Leica now its all about Sony.  LuLa makes no secret of its enthusiasms and its prejudices.  Personally I read what I am interested in which sometimes is about equipment but much more about techniques and ideas and, on these subjects, there are lots of good interesting articles on this site.  Gone are the days, in Michaels time, when we could use LuLa as our equipment test site and that is not a problem for me as there are many other sources for that kind of information.

The web is a noisy place now and LuLa is a quiet and thoughtful location to chill out and read some good stuff.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2018, 05:18:51 PM »

I fully expect this post to be "moderated" out - but hopefully I may be wrong and alternative views, even if diametrically opposed to the owner of the site, are still allowed on this site which normally I enjoy and value. I am much more in sorrow than in anger. I have visited Luminous Landscape almost daily for many years for it's approach and depth. I was one of those who immediately subscribed to support the site because I understand that it is not an inexpensive undertaking to provide such a service.

However I confess that I was extremely disappointed by the video about Sony. Not because they are not good cameras - they are ... I own and use regularly two A7rII's and a A7II (as well as another brand). What I found to be in direct opposition to the style and traditions of this site - which are what have built it's reputation over the years as a serious and trustworthy resource for serious photographers - was the blatantly partisan pitch. This was not quiet considered analysis and explanation this was salesmanship more suitable perhaps for a car dealership. There were I think two specific mentions of Michael Reichman in the video. He might well have had similar opinions to those that Kevin expresses in the video but they would have put in more measured terms which would not have imperilled the reputation of the site for balanced and careful consideration. I am afraid that to me Kevin did indeed come across as an unrepentant and impetuous "fanboy" rather than a thoughtful commentator with a depth of knowledge and wise understanding of a complex industry.

Just as Kevin hopes in the video that his "rant" may encourage Canon and Nikon to do better so also do I hope that this "rant" (if that is what it is dismissed as) may encourage a more carefully considered balance and approach.

I finally saw a part of the video but had to stop. This is so far from Michael Reichmanns approach as can be. I'm sorry Kevin but you sound like a broken record playing sales talk. Try to be a bit objective that would be a lot better. You are no longer with a camera company :)
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JimT1

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 05:29:37 PM »

It's about innovation.  I've been eager to upgrade my camera because of what I am seeing from the likes of Sony and others.  The direction of the industry's future will come from the camera makers who are pro-active in getting the tech out to consumers and raise their brands value.  Nikon would have been done if it wasn't for releasing the excellent 850, even though having a mirror in your camera is obsolete.  And simply, smartphones today account for more photos being taken than any other tool.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 05:55:36 PM »

I think there is sometimes quite a bit of misunderstanding on how work relationships at a certain level.
There are some implicit protocols otherwise one passes for a freak at best.
This is not a coffee corner affair, or a forum where everybody opinate nor a politician journalist interview. Things don't work like that.

You're invited by Sony, you got 2 important executives and the interview was just as it should have been in this particular context.
It's not the place nor the moment to lauch publicaly: "what about the stupid menu system then", which is bad as everybody knows.
Those things are said off line.
Then later on, if Kevin by himself does a personal evaluation on a product, then it's the moment to launch all the criticsms artillery he might find.

There was a reportage LuLa did at Leica home WITH Mr Reichmann that was exactly like that, despite we all knew Leica made bad decisions.
Leica invite, you are the Host. The company opens its door and you got a CEO talking to you in front of the camera.
Michael was enthousistic (despite he knew certain things weren't working) because it's the moment to be diplomatic and to enjoy the company and recognise the heritage. Remember: this is not politics. This will not put the working class into starvation.
This is entertainment. A bad decision from Leica or whatever other brand you like best will not change the face of the world.

Every time LuLa had been involved into some conversations with important executives (remember that we are not in the corner's bar with friends but with empowered people with a great deal of responsabilities and cultured) the tone was always not entering into polemics nor criticsms, specially when you are the host.
Then, later and ON HIS OWN, Michael opinated.

And that's the way it works and always did. 

I don't see anything strange nor blind fanboyism in this interview at all.

Despite what I really think about Nikon is this: https://www.eoshd.com/2016/01/nikon-d5-versus-canon-1d-c-cinematic-4k-video-wins/
which is quite clear, (difficult to be clearer in fact)
if I had an interview with a Nikon executive, I'd introduced a subtle allusion in a phrase such as "when will you introduce THIS" or "do you plan to..."
That's it. Then on my own I may write this cristal clear article.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 06:17:45 PM by fredjeang2 »
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Kevin Raber

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 06:40:22 PM »

Hans, you didnít really know Michael and I did.  I am not Michael.  I speak my words and my enthusiasm as he would have wanted me.  The camera company thing is far behind me.  The passion of photography is what I am all about.  I travel the world, and love to take pictures.  We are about the only site on the internet that has had the opportunity to visit and talk with top camera company executives.  You should listen to their words. Read in between the lines.  Iím not their to chastise them.  I am there to talk with them.  I donít call them interviews I call them conversations.  I have more coming. I posted this rant as I thought you should know where I stand.  I love what Sonoy has done with their cameras.  So do a lot of other content providers.  I donít need to point out to executives or even most of this audience about issues and deficiencies of these cameras.  Everyone is aware of them.  And, based on the things we complained about a few years ago, we see improvements on in the newest models of cameras.  Donít mistake my enthusiasm for salesmanship.

Soon I will be shooting for a while with an 850 as I want to make sure that I see and experience that camera.  I suggest in return that many of you who havenít  shot with a Sony go to your local camera store and try one out.

In the end though you need to be happy with your choice.  I have publicly stated what I am using and happy with.  For me it allows me to take the photos that I want and more than anything else have fun doing it. 
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Jeff

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2018, 01:35:26 AM »

" I suggest in return that many of you who havenít  shot with a Sony go to your local camera store and try one out."

A7 III  - not where I am, sold out, awaiting stock and may  even still be clearing  a backlog of pre-orders !

The same thing happened with the A99 II, about two months after release before I could get one but the wait was worthwhile as it is quite a good camera, even if though it does have a mirror  ;)

On a more serious note, if you have one, do support  your local camera store before  everything  " goes online " only with no stores to visit.
( perhaps that could be a topic for a future article )


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davidgp

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2018, 03:38:41 AM »

Well, that's the thing: Mirrorless cannot at all be compared with the samrtphone vs. dumb phone. Digital vs. film was a similar revolution which made Kodak suffer (despite they had all the IP they could wish for). Now electric cars, trucks and busses vs. fossil vehicles can be compared to the samrtphone revolution (and probably more than that). I see the removal of the mirrorbox as an incremental movement that is not really groundbreaking. I think Canon and Nikon will launch such cameras but they have a real problem as they need to provide an entirely line of lenses to benefit from the mirrorless camera.

I donít see the change to mirrorless as an revolution, like it could be the introduction of smartphones at the end of last decade or the change from digital to film... Iím seeing it more as and evolution. I believe mirrorless is the future, after all iím a user of it, but I think OVFs will be around for several years to come... after all, the first mirrorless with interchangeable lens was released like 10 years ago... I will expect a revolution being a bit faster...

Saying that, I agree with Kevin, Sony is doing a marvelous work, in terms of technology, in terms of number of lenses and cameras released, and also in terms of public relations...


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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2018, 05:43:47 AM »

I see no problem with that. It happens in this moment in time that a company you use products from is being particularly prolific. It is only natural that the content reflects that.

What I miss is more content on lenses for the Sony system, particularly the ones I like:)

Jonathan Cross

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2018, 08:58:26 AM »

Kevin, it is nice to have your views confirmed.  I am also glad that you do mention Fuji and Olympus.  I jumped to Fuji with the X-E1 for travel as I found my Canon set up to big and heavy to go in hand luggage ( I do not trust putting kit in hold luggage).  I now have a X-T2 and various lenses and am very happy; I do not see myself changing for some time.  I like the firmware updates and am having fun with focus bracketing.  My only concern about Sony was, and still is, the pace at which new models come out.  To continually update must be very expensive and I wonder how easy it is to sell a superseded model without losing too much money.  I am speaking as a keen amateur, who also takes photos for our Parish Magazine (92 pages every month), the profits from which go to our church, hence I do not charge but just enjoy the activity.  I could not justify frequent upgrades. 

As a final comment, LULA is one of the most civilised photographic websites and forums that I have seen.

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jeremyrh

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2018, 11:35:33 AM »

Hans, you didnít really know Michael and I did. 

Bit of a strange thing to say - I don't think anyone was claiming to know Michael any better than anyone else, just observing that Michael did not produce the sort of rant seen in your video. Obviously you have the right to hold and express your views as you see fit, but ...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:45:50 AM by jeremyrh »
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KLaban

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2018, 12:10:06 PM »

Sony and Fuji cameras are the antithesis of what it is I need and want but that said they are changing the direction of the camera market.
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David Watson

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2018, 01:22:44 PM »

Sony and Fuji cameras are the antithesis of what it is I need and want but that said they are changing the direction of the camera market.

I couldn't agree more except that I have just bought a Sony A7RM2 and a couple of lenses second hand on Ebay.  I am going to Ukraine (actually Chernobyl) in July and I was not prepared to risk my MFD kit in such a location.  Having got used to large bright viewfinders and well designed simple systems I was disappointed in the fiddly controls, confusing menus and tiny viewfinder.  Having said that I will still take it with me (it is only a two day trip) and then sell it on Ebay when I return.

I really cannot see why people get so excited about these complicated "miniature" cameras.
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David Mantripp

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2018, 02:01:13 PM »

As a preface, let me say although I'm going to be critical, if I didn't care, I wouldn't be using up so much of my precious spare time writing this...

I've just watched the video and honestly it was hard going. It was quite frankly embarrassing. If it wasn't for the fact that I was on a train I'd probably have been shouting at the screen.  The first thing I would have shouted is, Kevin, if all this wondermagickal techie stuff lets you shoot otherwise impossible photos, then SHOW US THESE PHOTOS and explain why only the fabulous new, improved Sony Roketblaster Digital ABC99xyz Mk 37 could have _possibly_ enabled you to take them. Because frankly, I don't see much in your galleries that requires all these "awesome features", and that is not intended to be in any way derogatory. Taking such an approach might, just might, make you come across less as a door to door salesman ("only $2000, ladies & gents"), and make you realise that its actually yet another new set of Emperor's clothes.

I'm going to go with those who say that Michael Reichmann would never have published anything so gushing. Sure, he liked his gear, but he kept it short and sweet.  What made the old Lula for me (and I've been here since at least 1999) was the travelogue aspect.  Through Michael Reichmann I discovered places like Costa Rica and Iceland, which I could then explore myself. I also got a view of North America, which I've never been able to see in person, but which was really enthralling.  And tacked on to the end of these articles, and later, videos, were short, to the point gear reviews.  Sometimes of exotic stuff that was as realistic to me as a Ferrari, sometimes of incredibly useful, reasonably priced stuff which I've used for years, such as Acratech ballheads.  But the focus was on a love and fascination for photography, principally landscape photography, and how to get better at doing it.

Nowadays you seem too be veering more on more towards competing with the YouTube Heeeeeyyyy Guyyyss Gear vLoggers.  The production style of the Sony is so much going that way, and is "On The Rocks", even if that is enjoyable.  Kevin, we don't need another Steve Huff. The world has enough Steve Huffs.  The content on the site is diverse - giving a platform to Andrew Molitor is very commendable, for example, and the Charles Cramer series was worth 10 times the price of entry - the quality is well above average, but honestly it's a bit scattergun.  I don't seem much of a theme.  It's almost like a aggregation channel.

I get it that you need to compete, but really, falling under the spell of Sony's awesome marketing machine is just making you end up looking like everybody else, and it will backfire.  I also get that a very large proportion of your audience are only "photographers" in the sense that it gives them an excuse to buy and play with an endless stream of high end consumer tech, while making them feel "creative" at the same time. And I also get that the stream of new shiny to feed that audience with is drying up at at an alarming rate for sites that depend on it, like DPReview. So this is really not the time to go all gearhead and try to be like DPReview.

Kevin, you keep describing yourself as a photographer - I'm going to be really rude now and call you out on it. Most attendees at that Sony thing were bloggers, vloggers, self-described educators, whatever.  A bunch of hot air. So, show us the money. Show us your photography. Get back to basics - enough with the gear, take us out on a shoot, take us on a road trip.  Get back to the stuff that only Lula could do.  Remember "back to the print" ?  What happened to that ?  Why do you need massive dynamic range, when you can't print even half of it ? 

I've noticed a strong reverse correlation between interesting photography and gear talk - really interesting, talented photographers don't list their gear on their website, or in their books.  They just show the photography. The gear is just that - gear. It just needs to work. Personally I don't care about Sony either way.  Or Fuji, except I find that Fuji cameras have a weird way of attracting cult-like behaviour. Or Nikon, or Canon, Leica, or anybody.  Like probably 99% of visitors to this site, I've got more gear than I'll ever need or use.  What I come back to Lula for is to, hopefully, get some inspiration on using it.

Regards
David
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2018, 02:45:11 PM »

Bit of a strange thing to say - I don't think anyone was claiming to know Michael any better than anyone else, just observing that Michael did not produce the sort of rant seen in your video. Obviously you have the right to hold and express your views as you see fit, but ...

I was wondering about that statement too. But in retrospect I should not have posted in the first place, since I should have known what the response would be, so no more on that. I will give kudos to Kevin of keeping the site alive and some good articles and then I can ignore the rest.
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Kevin Raber

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2018, 04:40:00 PM »

David, appreciate your feedback and comments.  And, I agree with you on many things.  First you can see my photos on this site in the galleries.  I am always trying something new.  I have several videos and articles started on getting back to the photographing aspect.  Also have a number of interesting conversations coming up with other photographers. We also have a very good candidate for the new Masters Series and we are working on details of that now. I published recently an article on abstracts in the ice explaining how that was done.  Have one in the works on shooting in Chicago plus a number more.  I hate excuses but my biggest problem is being one person with a lot of things that need to be done.

This week has not a been productive one as I am dealing with my mother who is in hospice.

As far as YouTube things go, yes we are trying to catch up and be relevant on this platform.  We have to be able to attract new readers and like it or not YouTube is the new Google.  I am not afraid to try new things.  And, I like to have fun doing these projects.

I do the best I can with this site and keeping it relevant, different, educational and touching on a lot of different aspects of photography both technical and asteically for the large and wide variety of readers and subscribers we have. 

Michael built this site to be one that I loved.  He and I became best friends.  When I took this site over I promised Michael I would carry on with what he started.  I am not Michael though and believe it or not knowing Michael as well as I did he would be doing many of the same things I am doing.  Our industry is changing and more than a lot of other sites Luminous-Landscape has been changing with it.  I offer my voice now. This site is my life and photography is too. 

Donít mistake enthusiasm which I have a lot of, for salesmanship.  Using SONY products I am the first to realize what could be better and I have made sure that Sony knows my thoughts.

Your comments didnít fall on deaf ears. 



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DougDolde

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2018, 05:58:26 PM »

Kevin I am curious if you would have still switched from Sony to Nikon if you had known about the D850. I chose to go with the D850 over a Sony.   I tried an RX-1 a while back and couldn't bond with it. 
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fredjeang2

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2018, 06:00:06 PM »

As a preface, let me say although I'm going to be critical, if I didn't care, I wouldn't be using up so much of my precious spare time writing this...

I've just watched the video and honestly it was hard going. It was quite frankly embarrassing. If it wasn't for the fact that I was on a train I'd probably have been shouting at the screen.  The first thing I would have shouted is, Kevin, if all this wondermagickal techie stuff lets you shoot otherwise impossible photos, then SHOW US THESE PHOTOS and explain why only the fabulous new, improved Sony Roketblaster Digital ABC99xyz Mk 37 could have _possibly_ enabled you to take them. Because frankly, I don't see much in your galleries that requires all these "awesome features", and that is not intended to be in any way derogatory. Taking such an approach might, just might, make you come across less as a door to door salesman ("only $2000, ladies & gents"), and make you realise that its actually yet another new set of Emperor's clothes.

I'm going to go with those who say that Michael Reichmann would never have published anything so gushing. Sure, he liked his gear, but he kept it short and sweet.  What made the old Lula for me (and I've been here since at least 1999) was the travelogue aspect.  Through Michael Reichmann I discovered places like Costa Rica and Iceland, which I could then explore myself. I also got a view of North America, which I've never been able to see in person, but which was really enthralling.  And tacked on to the end of these articles, and later, videos, were short, to the point gear reviews.  Sometimes of exotic stuff that was as realistic to me as a Ferrari, sometimes of incredibly useful, reasonably priced stuff which I've used for years, such as Acratech ballheads.  But the focus was on a love and fascination for photography, principally landscape photography, and how to get better at doing it.

Nowadays you seem too be veering more on more towards competing with the YouTube Heeeeeyyyy Guyyyss Gear vLoggers.  The production style of the Sony is so much going that way, and is "On The Rocks", even if that is enjoyable.  Kevin, we don't need another Steve Huff. The world has enough Steve Huffs.  The content on the site is diverse - giving a platform to Andrew Molitor is very commendable, for example, and the Charles Cramer series was worth 10 times the price of entry - the quality is well above average, but honestly it's a bit scattergun.  I don't seem much of a theme.  It's almost like a aggregation channel.

I get it that you need to compete, but really, falling under the spell of Sony's awesome marketing machine is just making you end up looking like everybody else, and it will backfire.  I also get that a very large proportion of your audience are only "photographers" in the sense that it gives them an excuse to buy and play with an endless stream of high end consumer tech, while making them feel "creative" at the same time. And I also get that the stream of new shiny to feed that audience with is drying up at at an alarming rate for sites that depend on it, like DPReview. So this is really not the time to go all gearhead and try to be like DPReview.

Kevin, you keep describing yourself as a photographer - I'm going to be really rude now and call you out on it. Most attendees at that Sony thing were bloggers, vloggers, self-described educators, whatever.  A bunch of hot air. So, show us the money. Show us your photography. Get back to basics - enough with the gear, take us out on a shoot, take us on a road trip.  Get back to the stuff that only Lula could do.  Remember "back to the print" ?  What happened to that ?  Why do you need massive dynamic range, when you can't print even half of it ? 

I've noticed a strong reverse correlation between interesting photography and gear talk - really interesting, talented photographers don't list their gear on their website, or in their books.  They just show the photography. The gear is just that - gear. It just needs to work. Personally I don't care about Sony either way.  Or Fuji, except I find that Fuji cameras have a weird way of attracting cult-like behaviour. Or Nikon, or Canon, Leica, or anybody.  Like probably 99% of visitors to this site, I've got more gear than I'll ever need or use.  What I come back to Lula for is to, hopefully, get some inspiration on using it.

Regards
David
Something I find a little strange in your post is that you talk Sony like a sort of blockbusting phenomenon based on "awesome marketing machine" and more suitable at best for the youtuber crowd and posers in opposition to real photographers...I know I know, you did not pronounced directly certain words here but the philosophy of your post seems to go in such direction. I copy-paste:
-the fabulous new, improved Sony Roketblaster Digital ABC99xyz Mk 37
-falling under the spell of Sony's awesome marketing machine is just making you end up looking like everybody else
-Nowadays you seem too be veering more on more towards competing with the YouTube Heeeeeyyyy Guyyyss Gear vLoggers.  The production style of the Sony is so much going that way,

Soo...
Sony, with other brands, is shaping the image industry in both still and motion at all levels, included the very very and extremely demanding high-end. They don't build toys only for people who film their cake recipies in FB or for the next gear reviewer... but their cameras and lenses are being used daily by top photographers, videographers and cinematographers. Real photographers, yes.
Their mirrorless are gaining more and more adepts in the field of sport and photojournalism simply because they deliver high performance in smaller package very well priced, not because everybody is foolish and falls in the spell of marketing bureaux. they have an impressive line of high-end lenses/cameras for the motion industry way out the range of what most people in this forum are used to work with. My point is that if one think that Sony is just about clever marketing but the emperor has no clothes, then it is not the reality. Their tech is very reffined and serves the content creators.
I'm brand agnostic. I don't care who innovates, Sony, Zikonon... but if someone thing that Sony is all about marketing the "real photographer" does not need...well, in this forum and the bests actually, not the ones who talk DOX or specs all the time, no, the real photoraphers, the good ones; we'll find gazillion opinions on Sony and yes, the emperor has clothes.
Just like Fuji is doing great stuff, but I read some people here talking about Fuji lenses like this: "who the hell heard about fuji lenses 4 years ago?"... things are sometimes upside-down

« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 06:36:39 PM by fredjeang2 »
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ErikKaffehr

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Kevin has a point...
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2018, 08:13:45 PM »

Hi,

I think that Kevin has a point. Mirrorless systems use the actual sensor output for viewing and focusing. It is the simplest and most accurate solution.

The shutter shock issue was a major one with the A7r, a camera that did not have an electronic first shutter curtain. But the A7r was something like five years ago. I never bought the A7r, mostly because I felt that the sensor was old, with no EFCS and no PDAF.

Shutter shock is in no way unique to the A7r, any mechanical shutter induces some amount of shutter shock. It was very prominent for say Mamiya 645 or Pentax 67.

On the other hand, I think that Sony lenses are overpriced and I actually think they are not reliably high performers. I can not really say about that, as I mostly use Canon or Sigma lenses with my A7rII. I have only two Sony lenses, the 90/2.8 macro and the 28-70 kit lens. I am pretty sure my 90/2.8 has a tilted focal plane.

The A7rII is pretty optimal for me. I can use it with Canon mount lenses. In my work I need good lenses but no fast lenses. So I feel the Canon/Sony combo works well me. But, I am considering to buy a Canon body for things like shooting birds in flight.

Best regards
Erik
I don't think this is overlooked, but perhaps but some. The shutter shock were overlooked by several including Sony. I really like the fully electronic shutter in the D850 for long focal lengths where this is critical.
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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