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Author Topic: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk  (Read 2381 times)

Kevin Raber

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Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« on: May 16, 2018, 08:22:24 AM »

I thought I would take a few minutes and address why there seems to be a lot of Sony talk and content on the site right now.  One reason is I am back from a Sony Kando event and I did a lot of videos with some very interesting people.  In addition, there are a lot of Sony cameras to talk about right now.  In any case, check out the article and video HERE
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Kevin Raber
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2018, 08:33:50 AM »

Kevin, I know you are responding to comments, but I see no problem spending a few articles discussing these new Sony cameras. They are excellent. At Michael's suggestion some years ago I too went mirrorless, the first model being the Sony Nex-5, and have been up grading in this Sony line ever since, now using an a6300. Equipped with a Zeiss lens, it's really an excellent camera (other than for the sensor cleaning business which remains an irritation) and the one I use most of the time. My Canon 1DsMkIII and Phase D40+ are gathering dust. I like the combination of image quality, feature set and extreme portability I get with this camera, which with three lenses, four batteries, a Nissan flash, vertical grip and a LoewePro Messenger bag to carry it all weigh-in at about 5 pounds. It's remarkable.

All that said, the new Nikon D850 is gaining widespread professional acclaim and some output and experience reports I've seen of it would appear to justify an in-depth review. Of course it would be a totally different experience, but it's also making waves.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Kevin Raber

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2018, 09:00:07 AM »

Good point on the 850. Could be fun.  Illl see about doing one.  Thanks Mark
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Kevin Raber
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Rado

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2018, 10:09:19 AM »

One has to admire/respect Sony's marketing efforts - they are aggressively courting the internet talking heads (just search for "I've switched to Sony from..." on youtube). It is a bit tiresome but also easily skippable so I don't mind it on Lula.
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Jeff

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2018, 10:14:33 AM »

Possibly this article would be equally at home in the Rantorials category ?

I am getting  vibes that you are frustrated somewhat with the lack of activity at Nikon / Canon and would like to offer some balance here on LL with some features / articles on their products as well.

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stevesanacore

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2018, 10:41:00 AM »

I thought I would take a few minutes and address why there seems to be a lot of Sony talk and content on the site right now.  One reason is I am back from a Sony Kando event and I did a lot of videos with some very interesting people.  In addition, there are a lot of Sony cameras to talk about right now.  In any case, check out the article and video HERE

Kevin, no excuses necessary. Sony is killing it with great cameras, (and some great optics too), and pushing the envelope with tech. Like you I've been shooting for decades and have used almost every brand in all formats. I also get really excited about tech and am an early adopter. I find among my piers there are two types of professional photographers, those that are very tech savvy and enjoy change, and those that are insecure about changing what works. The reality is that Nikon and Canon are not doing much in innovation these days. There cameras and lenses are excellent, but certainly not as exciting as what Sony, m4/3, and Fuji are doing. Yes the Nikon 850 is probably the ultimate DSLR, but after using Sony for the past few years, there is no going back for me. Do I think less of people using Canon or Nikon, of course not. Getting excited about new camera technology that doesn't compromise quality is what you do best. That is what I come here to read about. Keep it up!
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2018, 10:57:07 AM »

I thought I would take a few minutes and address why there seems to be a lot of Sony talk and content on the site right now.  One reason is I am back from a Sony Kando event and I did a lot of videos with some very interesting people.  In addition, there are a lot of Sony cameras to talk about right now.  In any case, check out the article and video HERE

I have no issue with a lot of Sony info. It is clear to me that you more than like the mirrorless cameras and it is clear why. I'm still failing to see the big revolution here. The weight reduction argument is mainly false since the lenses for a given sensor size and f/stop determines the size and weight of the lens. For a full package it makes a fairly small difference in the total weight if the camera body is a few hundred grams lighter. I have looked into many different viewfinders of mirrorless cameras as some of my workshop participants come with mirrorless cameras. I don't like the look of my landscapes in the viewfinder. The shooting style is not different really and I also use auto ISO when I shoot many different things than landscapes.

Probably one day when I will also have a mirrorless camera, but so far I don't see the advantage for me. If I should go mirrorless today and really reduce weight on the system level I would go Olympus as this would be seriously less weight than a full frame system (mirrorless or not). I still only see about 10% of my workshop participants come with a mirrorless camera on average. The rest are Canon and Nikon and mostly full frame. I have been waiting for this to change over the years.

Mark D Segal

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2018, 11:06:15 AM »

With mirrorless, it's not just the weight of the camera, it's the size and form factor. The big difference in weight comes with the lenses that are needed for an APS-C sensor versus those for a 24*36mm sensor. It so happens that Sony has a great line-up of APS-C models in the mirrorless category, and the sensor quality is superb, so married with good lenses made for that sensor size and most people wouldn't need FF with its added lens weight unless they needed many more MP for making very large prints without resizing.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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JimT1

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 11:21:09 AM »

2007 Apple introduced the iPhone.  The leader in phone sales at the time was Nokia.  Nokia didn't see the need/urgency to update their phones to being "smart".  It only took 5 years of introducing new tech from Apple and a reluctant to change attitude by Nokia for the tide to turn.  Microsoft eventually bought Nokia's phone division and today Nokia only licenses its patents for phones. 

I praise Sony for actually making a difference and as mainly a Canon owner, I feel Canon is making the same mistakes Nokia did with phones.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2018, 11:28:11 AM »

. Yes the Nikon 850 is probably the ultimate DSLR...
Depends very much for what.
For a sport and photojournalist it is very very far from being the ultimate device where the 1D and D5 rule but more and more sport reporters are switching Sony.
Many people oriented are switching Fuji and Panasonic also did a great job, attracting more people to
Micro 43.
Canon, Nikon and Pentax are sleeping big time. I see Canon reverting the situation,
But it's more likely that Nikon and Pentax are going to have difficult times unless they react
Right now and bring something really big.

As a strictly personal sensation, I would not be surprised to see both
Nikon and Pentax being out of business in the next years.

But to comment on the OP, I find the thread quite strange.
Kevin has been talking a lot about Fuji too, not just Sony.
The reality is that where R&D is happening today, where the buzz is and the biggest evolution took place
Has been done by 3 brands: Sony, Panasonic and Fuji.
It seems logical to me that Kevin reflects this reality.
If the others end to wake-up, I'm sure it's going to be reflected then also in LuLa.
Unfortunatly it's not the case.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:33:04 AM by fredjeang2 »
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BJL

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A similar commentary was recently offered at DPReview: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5446051925/brands-and-breakthroughs-here-s-why-you-ve-heard-so-much-about-sony-recently and I accept them both.

I also expect a big swing back to more coverage of Canon and Nikon at least in September: recently, Sony has been pushing out lots of new products, technology introductions, and related press releases, while Canon and Nikon seem to be working quietly towards some big announcements about EVF camera systems ("mirrorless"), which I expect by September for Photokina.
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OmerV

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 12:21:20 PM »

Kevin, your preference for Sony gear, and interest in technology is not the point. But as a spokesperson for photographers, I believe you have a duty to look behind the curtain. As a Sony user myself, I know very well Sony has been less innovative and more pitchman. You know Sony has not been heeding photographers wishes and needs.

We all know Sony has some of the best engineers in the world and yet they can’t implement a lossless compressed .ARW format? Really? And in fact it took years of complaints to finally drag Sony kicking and screaming into at least offering a non-compressed .ARW format. It may be that the rather negative article on the subject by DPreview embarrassed Sony into finally offering the full .ARW format.

Sony cameras have a ridiculous operational lag. On my a6500, changing aperture settings means waiting for the change to show in the viewfinder. I also have a Panasonic GM5, a tiny camera with much less processing power than the Sony, yet changes in that camera’s settings are displayed instantly. The GM5 also starts, and wakes from power save mode quicker than the Sony. And again, according to DPreview, the new A7III has operational lags. Innovation? Really?

And then there is the lens issue for the E APS-C cameras.

Building a mirrorless body around a 135 sized sensor is not innovation by itself. Yes, Sony has introduced new features that facilitate some kinds of photography, but has also been lacksidasical at best in understanding what Canon and Nikon know about cameras: A camera should respond immediately to a photographers needs, not be a gadget that requires a user to wait on it.*

*As Sony only makes small cameras, not medium or large formats.

If you test the Nikon D850, try this comparative test with your A7RIII: With each camera turned off, and while pressing the shutter button down all the way, turn the camera on. How long does it take for each camera to start exposing? Between my Sony a6500 and the much older Nikon D90, there is a considerable difference with the Sony taking much longer to start. Sure, this is only one part of a camera design, but the Sony disregard of these details is why you should start pulling the curtain back.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 12:51:45 PM »

2007 Apple introduced the iPhone.  The leader in phone sales at the time was Nokia.  Nokia didn't see the need/urgency to update their phones to being "smart".  It only took 5 years of introducing new tech from Apple and a reluctant to change attitude by Nokia for the tide to turn.  Microsoft eventually bought Nokia's phone division and today Nokia only licenses its patents for phones. 

I praise Sony for actually making a difference and as mainly a Canon owner, I feel Canon is making the same mistakes Nokia did with phones.

Well, that's the thing: Mirrorless cannot at all be compared with the samrtphone vs. dumb phone. Digital vs. film was a similar revolution which made Kodak suffer (despite they had all the IP they could wish for). Now electric cars, trucks and busses vs. fossil vehicles can be compared to the samrtphone revolution (and probably more than that). I see the removal of the mirrorbox as an incremental movement that is not really groundbreaking. I think Canon and Nikon will launch such cameras but they have a real problem as they need to provide an entirely line of lenses to benefit from the mirrorless camera.

BJL

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 02:45:18 PM »

... Mirrorless cannot at all be compared with the smartphone vs. dumb phone ... I think Canon and Nikon will launch such cameras but they have a real problem as they need to provide an entirely line of lenses to benefit from the mirrorless camera.
Actually, the large inventory of Canon and Nikon SLR lenses — both the individual lenses in the hands of photographers and their large array of SLR lens models — is a big part of why things will not flip so quickly or dramatically away from Canon and Nikon. It is very different from the phone scenario, where nothing about owning a "dumb phone" tied you to the same brand or same type of technology when it came time for a new phone. So long as a lot of photographers want to keep using those SLR lenses, Canon and Nikon will have a good market for bodies that use them well, in some mix of  SLRs and of "EVF cameras" that support those lenses as well as possible via adaptors, AF and AE system integration, and so on. I do see Canon and Nikon maintaining an advantage in how well adaptor mounted lenses perform compared to the "Canon on Sony" and "Nikon on Sony" alternatives.

The crunch will come once a large enough proportion of customers prefer to start with a clean slate an empty camera bag, buying both EVF camera bodies and lenses designed specifically to work with them. Will Canon and Nikon expand their new lens systems fast enough to compete well against the three established systems when that time comes?
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Krug

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 02:58:25 PM »

I fully expect this post to be "moderated" out - but hopefully I may be wrong and alternative views, even if diametrically opposed to the owner of the site, are still allowed on this site which normally I enjoy and value. I am much more in sorrow than in anger. I have visited Luminous Landscape almost daily for many years for it's approach and depth. I was one of those who immediately subscribed to support the site because I understand that it is not an inexpensive undertaking to provide such a service.

However I confess that I was extremely disappointed by the video about Sony. Not because they are not good cameras - they are ... I own and use regularly two A7rII's and a A7II (as well as another brand). What I found to be in direct opposition to the style and traditions of this site - which are what have built it's reputation over the years as a serious and trustworthy resource for serious photographers - was the blatantly partisan pitch. This was not quiet considered analysis and explanation this was salesmanship more suitable perhaps for a car dealership. There were I think two specific mentions of Michael Reichman in the video. He might well have had similar opinions to those that Kevin expresses in the video but they would have put in more measured terms which would not have imperilled the reputation of the site for balanced and careful consideration. I am afraid that to me Kevin did indeed come across as an unrepentant and impetuous "fanboy" rather than a thoughtful commentator with a depth of knowledge and wise understanding of a complex industry.

Just as Kevin hopes in the video that his "rant" may encourage Canon and Nikon to do better so also do I hope that this "rant" (if that is what it is dismissed as) may encourage a more carefully considered balance and approach.
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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 03:14:28 PM »

Mirrorless or not, what the heck! It's about the image. If you decide that "mirrorless" is an important argument to use a camera Kevin, fine. I like my D850, mirrorless or not, it's a great camera that creates great files that I can use. Mirrorless is not an issue for me, sony-boy!
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 03:18:34 PM »

Perhaps an overlooked advantage of mirrorless technology is that there is no mirror-slap to worry about in respect of image sharpness. I'm not sure whether the anti-shake technology looks after this in the mirror system cameras.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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m.heijkoop

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 03:29:37 PM »

Perhaps an overlooked advantage of mirrorless technology is that there is no mirror-slap to worry about in respect of image sharpness. I'm not sure whether the anti-shake technology looks after this in the mirror system cameras.
That has been solved very well in the D850
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fredjeang2

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 04:46:08 PM »

Perhaps an overlooked advantage of mirrorless technology is that there is no mirror-slap to worry about in respect of image sharpness. I'm not sure whether the anti-shake technology looks after this in the mirror system cameras.
On the G9 it's now 6.5 stops. And they are not a marketing claim but effective.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Just Published - Why So Much Sony Talk
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 05:04:27 PM »

On the G9 it's now 6.5 stops. And they are not a marketing claim but effective.

Very, very hard to believe. These stops are shutter speed of course in this context. So let's say you were starting with 1/50th second (call it "50"), meaning that as we increment to 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 4800 makes 6.5 stops on top of 1/50th; so with that camera if I expose at 1.50th I'm getting the equivalent in apparent steadiness as if I were shooting at 1/4800th? Is this believable?
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