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Author Topic: New Capital  (Read 2091 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 07:53:02 PM »

... only makes us look better to the rest of the Middle East...

You mean we would please those who were dancing in the streets on 9/11?

JoeKitchen

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 09:30:42 PM »

You mean we would please those who were dancing in the streets on 9/11?

Stranger things have happened. 

We are allies with England, you know, that country that burned down our capital in 1812. 
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Joe Kitchen
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Schewe

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2018, 01:22:28 AM »

Is there any truth to the rumour that Jerusalem is going to replace Washington as the new capital of the USA?

So, are you saying Israel is trying to be the banker of the USA?

Hum...Mnuchin is the Sec of the Treasury...

Or did you mean Capitol?

:~)
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Rob C

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2018, 04:22:49 AM »

So, are you saying Israel is trying to be the banker of the USA?

Hum...Mnuchin is the Sec of the Treasury...

Or did you mean Capitol?

:~)

I am perfectly aware of the differences betwen capital, capital and Capitol.

If you haven't already, consider for a moment where huge piles of wealth sit these days; in whose gift the keys to so much opportunity, power and patronage. Consult your nation's version of Who is Who if this needs spelling out, though I'm sure you already are perfectly aware of whose hands are doing the puppeteering.

And it sure ain't Joe Public's. Anywhere.

Rob C

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2018, 04:35:40 AM »

You mean we would please those who were dancing in the streets on 9/11?

Out of synch. - ask, first, why they flew those 'planes.

As you well know, any country that claims to run its state on the slogan that God is on our side is playing mind-games with its population.

States are run by human power structures with very clear tribal, social agendas that leave precious little room for the concept of God, who is turned into a smokescreen, the carrot even that leads the poor ass round and round the perpetual, horizontal treadmill of his life. The lucky ass gets the lure of a carrot, whereas the less fortunate one the taste of the stick.

If we could all of us but lose religion and find a personal God of peace, love and hope, life would be far more pleasant all round. It would even influence the manner in which we treat that poor ass drawing the water or grinding the corn.

;-)

LesPalenik

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2018, 04:53:01 AM »

Speaking about capital. Guatemala, a small country with GDP of $3100 per capita which is about 25% of the world average, just opened its new embassy in Jerusalem. 

RSL

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2018, 07:29:42 AM »

Yeah ... so ... what's your point? 

That Israel may may actually survive by using nukes, and then be berated and abandon by every other country, and completely fail and disappear due to attrition through lack of any interaction or support with other countries. 

Or maybe they would use the nukes and somehow Benjamin Netanyahu (assuming he does not go to prison over the recent and credible accusations of corruption) keeps the international community at bay (highly unlikely with how most of the world thinks about the use of nukes currently) and the country does survive. 

In either situation, the USA (and Europe) staying completely out of it only makes us look better to the rest of the Middle East. 

Not to mention, Israel is only making matters worse.  Being an apartheid state and unjustly engaging in military campaigns against an unarmed population is not really good for their image. 

Last, I got news for you, Iran is the next major power in the Middle East.  Nothing we can do will stop.  As of matter of fact we only helped this by castrating Iraq.  We best get use to Iran, because they are not going away.

Hi Joe,

Since your age is N/A I can't guess how long you served with the state department or the military. Which organization gave you your background? How long did you serve? In what capacity?

JoeKitchen

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2018, 09:05:03 AM »

Hi Joe,

Since your age is N/A I can't guess how long you served with the state department or the military. Which organization gave you your background? How long did you serve? In what capacity?

So your response to valid points is to create a red herring and set the foundation for an ad hominem argument by bringing up my age and lack of military experience?  Come on Russ, you're better then that. 

And while we are at, what does service in the State Department have anything to do with this?  They've been at the problem for years, and, well, the Middle East isn't any better.  One could make a valid argument that in fact our State Department and military has only made the situation worse. 
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Joe Kitchen
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"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
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RSL

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2018, 09:15:41 AM »

One could make a valid argument that in fact our State Department and military has only made the situation worse.

Right, Joe. Our military along with our allies won WW II, and just look at us now.

If you can make a "valid argument" make it. Don't leave us in suspense.

donbga

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2018, 09:18:25 AM »

It's past time to turn Iraq, Iran, and Syria into a sheet of glass.

Don Bryant
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Rob C

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2018, 09:47:22 AM »

It's past time to turn Iraq, Iran, and Syria into a sheet of glass.

Don Bryant


Well, collateral damage will resolve the "Israel Problem" as well as utterly ruin the tourist trade in Cyprus. But perhaps if it can be kept to that, possibly by means of a very large bell jar borrowed from a friendly local laboratory somewhere, it will all have been worth it.

Of course, that will leave Saudi Arabia and Yemen still contributing whatever they contribute, and naturally, the experiment would then have to be extended southwards, too... and eastwards, to encompass all the territories marking the edges of northern India. If the neighbours even further east (or west, depending from where you choose to begin your atomic crusade, don't panic and launch their own preemptive strikes at you, then everything will have been settled once and for all, and you'll be left to mutate into whatever post-apocalyptic life dictates. I can hardly wait.

I am assuming that Mr Putin will sit back and play the waiting game; you known, wait until your enemies have ruined one another.

Rob
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 09:51:16 AM by Rob C »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2018, 10:13:12 AM »

...Or did you mean Capitol?

No he didn’t, although, with “capital,” the pun is uncanny.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2018, 10:20:11 AM »

... ask, first, why they flew those 'planes...

And the answer would justify it?

P.S. Wishing the world without religion is an interesting daydreaming activity, on a par with wishing to be young again. In the meantime, we have to deal with the world as-is.

JoeKitchen

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2018, 12:17:46 PM »

Right, Joe. Our military along with our allies won WW II, and just look at us now.

If you can make a "valid argument" make it. Don't leave us in suspense.

First, the fact that our military won WW2 has no bearing on what would happen if we pulled out of the Middle East.  It is an erroneous interject designed to be a red herring argument. 

Furthermore, WW2 is pretty much an anomaly when it comes to ending conflicts.  It is the only conflict where peace universally happened and all sides gave up feelings of revenge towards another.  Nearly every other war, including many we have been a part of, has ended the opposite. 

Next, although our military won WW2, we did loose the Korean War, Vietnam War, and the War of 1812. 

On top of that, the idea, that you are proposing, that the whole Middle East would go to hell and a WW3, with nukes, would be a result of it is nonsense.  The fact is, we have no idea what would happen. 
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Joe Kitchen
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"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2018, 12:59:31 PM »

...The fact is, we have no idea what would happen. 

I think we pretty much do have.

The only compatibale civilization in the region would be “pushed into the sea,” or at least that would be attempted, and replaced with an incompatible one, with a medieval worldview, hellbent on turning the rest of the world into one giant sharia state. Now, given that Israel wouldn’t go without a fight, most likely a nuclear one, then you might actually be right, we don’t know what the end result would be. Other than an even bigger mess.

John Camp

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2018, 01:28:57 PM »

Much of what has been said in the thread is so dumb it makes my teeth hurt, but I'll try to be as temperate in my comments as I can.

I've spent quite a bit of time in the Middle East -- Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, with brief visits a decade or so ago (as a reporter embedded with the Army) to Iraq and Kuwait. I like and admire the remnants of middle eastern civilizations, especially those of Iran and Egypt. I spent quite a bit of time in Israel, as I worked on archaeological digs there for 15 years (as a dig photographer.) I should mention that I'm not religious, but my heritage is Roman Catholic; and that I'm a political liberal.

1. Israel is not an apartheid state. On the contrary, until recently most of its Jewish population was made up of refugees from Arab states that maintained apartheid as related to its Jewish residents. With the recent arrivals of large numbers of Russian Jews, driven out by the widespread revival of anti-Semitism in Russia and Eastern Europe, Jews of European heritage now have a slight majority.

2. Israel is often thought of as having a relatively small population of Jews, when in fact, there are 6.5 million Jews in Israel, as well as a couple million of the most affluent Arabs in the Middle East. Its Jewish population is about one and a half times that of Ireland. The point being, the Jews aren't going anywhere, any more than the Irish are.

3. American "progressives," who make up one of the most anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic groups in the US, are usually so insular that they equate their ignorant, flower-child feelings of goodwill with the natural state of being of the world. That's because they don't know any better. What the Jews have learned over their history, and particularly in the 20th Century, is that you should listen to what your enemies say, and then, **believe them.** Hamas advocates the elimination of Jews. Period. It's not a secret, it's part of their charter. The Jews believe them, as they should. That's the core of the conflict. Hamas is also an explicitly fascist organization. No secret about that either; it's kind of odd that U.S. progressives and fascists should make such friendly common cause, but there it is.

4. There have always been Jews in Jerusalem and Israel in general, going back to the first millennium BCE. The Jews have very good reason for taking the land they've taken in the recent expansions, and it's not because they wanted to grow grapes on it. Anyone whose been there knows that's laughable -- most of the land they're talking about (that taken over by "settlers") is hard desert. Then why do it? Because the Arabs forever have threatened to invade Israel, and some of the most sensitive land takings have involved defensive/offensive positions. The original West Bank came as close as either 12K or 12 miles to the Med (I forget which), about halfway down Israel. One quick military thrust by Jordan (which controlled the West Bank before the war) would have cut Israel is half. Same with the Golan Heights: If you stand on the wall of the Golan Heights, you are looking straight down on the Sea of Galilee and Tiberius, one of Israel's major cities. And, of course, the first thing the Syrians did, when they controlled it, was fill it up with artillery.

5. Originally, the land occupied by new, incoming Jewish inhabitants of Palestine in the early 20th century was not "taken." They didn't have that power. It was purchased from Ottoman overlords who mostly lived in Istanbul. The Arabs were essentially driven out after what amounted to a guerrilla conflict begun after WWI by the Arabs, continuing through the 20s and 30s, culminating in all-out war after WWII. Even then, the Israelis didn't exactly drive out Arab inhabitants, though they could have. Muslim Arabs still make up 25% of Israel's population; whole towns are dominated by Arabs (including Nazareth) and Arabs sit in the Israeli legislature. It's not in any way analogous to the European settlement of the Americas, which often was an explicit invasion.

6. Americans too often think of the conflict between Jews and Arabs as a "problem." Problems can be solved, but the conflict isn't a "problem." It's a situation. A situation can't be solved -- it just is. If you insist on a "solution," you're going to get a bloodbath. The Northern Ireland/Ireland situation is somewhat similar. So is the Russia/Ukraine situation, and the India/Pakistan Kashmir situation.

7. By the way, the U.S. military didn't actually win the European war during WWII. That was mostly done by the Russians, who had the Germans on the run before the Normandy invasions. We helped, but most of the credit for winning in Europe goes to the Russians.   
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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RSL

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2018, 03:00:02 PM »

Thanks, John, for that very clear clarification. The only thing I'd quibble with is the last paragraph. Yes, the Russians beat the Germans, but they beat them for three reasons: (1) Old man winter decimated the German army just as it had the Swedes in 1709 and the French in 1815. (2) Hitler blundered badly when he diverted the attack toward Ukraine when Moscow was about to go down. (3) The US was breaking its neck to supply Russia with the tools to fight the war.

It's a real pleasure to hear from somebody who's been there and done that. Bravo!

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2018, 03:11:54 PM »

That, Russ, plus a minor detail of the 20+ million military and civilian dead, which dwarfes anything else.

RSL

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2018, 03:20:55 PM »

Absolutely, Slobodan. I started to put that in, then decided not to. But it's an incredible thing. Had Hitler not decided to invade Russia the west would be very different from what it is now. I know Churchill heaved a sigh of relief when Hitler moved east, because he put the sigh in his six-volume set on WW II. I also suspect the Russian move convinced FDR that we weren't going to be able to stay out of the war.
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