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Author Topic: New Capital  (Read 2074 times)

Rob C

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New Capital
« on: May 14, 2018, 01:23:47 PM »

Is there any truth to the rumour that Jerusalem is going to replace Washington as the new capital of the USA?

This came at lunch from my waitress who was arguing that sons-in-law are more important than world peace, silly girl!

I told her that Mr T had told all of us that peace in the Middle East was one of several number one priorities and that he would be doing all in his power to retain his honourable position as the most honest of brokers. How could anyone, anywhere, doubt that for a moment!

:-)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2018, 01:58:05 PM »

We're living in strange times.
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Rob C

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2018, 08:16:10 AM »

Maybe a meltdown is coming.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2018, 09:48:47 AM »

For eons, we tried one approach. It has obviously spectacularly failed. Time for a different approach?

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2018, 11:41:08 AM »

For eons, we tried one approach. It has obviously spectacularly failed. Time for a different approach?
Maybe: Eliminate the Palestinians and thus solve the "Palestinian problem?"
It worked pretty well for us with Native Americans in this country.   ::)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2018, 12:06:04 PM »

I wouldn’t bet on it, Eric (unless it is an Indian casino).

Rob C

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2018, 12:10:35 PM »

Makes me wonder what all those long, tall Texans would do if some group from the UN decided to give their state away to some religious cult just because it wanted one to make its own. And how would the neighbouring states feel about the overflow?

I may be starting to understand what the NRA is secretly all about.

There is great fear of that in the two Irelands, as well, and has been for as long as people can remember.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2018, 12:29:09 PM »

Hypotheticals, Rob, hypotheticals. Right or wrong initially, the reality is here to stay.


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LesPalenik

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 01:32:58 PM »

America is a free country. They can move their embassies as they like. In Canada, they have their embassy in Ottawa and US consulates in several other cities. It works quite well, although one could argue that other nations lived in Ottawa before.
 
I don't remember any fights and demonstrations when they moved in 1999 their German embassy from Bonn to Berlin. Although Russia thought it was a bit provocative.
OTH, the Occupy disturbers caused a real mess and a lot of damage in 2011 in Berlin.

JoeKitchen

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2018, 02:30:33 PM »

For eons, we tried one approach. It has obviously spectacularly failed. Time for a different approach?

Pretty sure this going to fail too. 

The reality is Israel is running an apartheid state and we are enabling it.  It does not matter where the capitol is; unless we (the USA) stop enabling Israel and stop providing them with support, this will never get solved. 

If we suddenly cut all support to the Israelis and told them it would not be brought back until they made pease, there would be pease pretty fast.
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RSL

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2018, 03:30:41 PM »

Well they certainly ought to make pease, Joe. Maybe even beans and corn.

Rob C

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 03:34:48 PM »

Pretty sure this going to fail too. 

The reality is Israel is running an apartheid state and we are enabling it.  It does not matter where the capitol is; unless we (the USA) stop enabling Israel and stop providing them with support, this will never get solved. 

If we suddenly cut all support to the Israelis and told them it would not be brought back until they made pease, there would be pease pretty fast.


I'm not so certain about that.

I think they - the Israelis - would still not find peace unless they got the hell out completely, and as Slobodan suggested in another context, ain't gonna happen.

The problem is that people remember where they once had home; you can't throw them out on the strength of agreements drawn up thousands of miles away and expect smiles and congratulations all round.

I remember the emotional support Israel earned at the end of the Six Day War pretty much from all non-Moslem quarters. The rescue from that African airport was another such respect and admiration earner. So, what does it do with all that positive vibe in its bank vaults? Blows the whole goddam lot by encroaching, in inexorable manner, onto more and more land, internationally acknowledged that it should not touch. And the U.S. does nothing to discourage in any effective, real way. It knocks Russia for its veto of anything to do with Syrian despots but silently aids Israel at every step. Why? Everybody not blind, that can read, knows the answer without having to consult Dr Google. Follow the money trail in the U.S. instead.

LesPalenik

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 03:35:13 PM »

Pure coincidence, Russia unveiled yesterday their new bridge from Russia to Crimea. Not sure if the lead trucker in that convoy had a valid truck license. 
The bridge is 19km long and it cost much more than the US Embassy compound in Jerusalem. Mike Pompeo condemned Russia's construction of the new bridge, but otherwise no disturbances were reported.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/putin-kerch-strait-bridge-crimea-ukraine-russia-1.4663923

JoeKitchen

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 03:35:29 PM »

Well they certainly ought to make pease, Joe. Maybe even beans and corn.

Oops; I have never claimed to be the best speller. 
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Joe Kitchen
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RSL

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 03:43:20 PM »

I think they - the Israelis - would still not find peace unless they got the hell out completely, and as Slobodan suggested in another context, ain't gonna happen.

If the Israelis "got the hell out completely" the Middle East soon would be in a position to threaten what's left of Europe as well as the U.S. with nukes. You think North Korea is a problem? Its threat would pale next to a nuclear Middle East.

JoeKitchen

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 03:56:45 PM »

If the Israelis "got the hell out completely" the Middle East soon would be in a position to threaten what's left of Europe as well as the U.S. with nukes. You think North Korea is a problem? Its threat would pale next to a nuclear Middle East.

This is pure speculation.  And, if I might ask, exactly which country would be posing this threat? 

Personally I think if we left Israel alone to defend themselves, and do provide any help, regardless if they prevail or disappear, that would help us greatly in relations to all other Middle Eastern countries. 
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Rob C

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 04:04:25 PM »

If the Israelis "got the hell out completely" the Middle East soon would be in a position to threaten what's left of Europe as well as the U.S. with nukes. You think North Korea is a problem? Its threat would pale next to a nuclear Middle East.

That presupposes that the various ME factions wouldn't annihilate one another first; I believe the major conflict will not be between Jew and Moslem, but between Moslem and Moslem, just as, left to its own devices, Ireland would be a bloodbath of different Christian bloods. It's all absolutely crazy. And it simmers away in various football supporter bars throughout many "civilized" European countries; who needs politics as an excuse for stupidity?

RSL

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 04:22:30 PM »

This is pure speculation.  And, if I might ask, exactly which country would be posing this threat? 

Personally I think if we left Israel alone to defend themselves, and do provide any help, regardless if they prevail or disappear, that would help us greatly in relations to all other Middle Eastern countries.

Joe, you seem to think that without the U.S. Israel would simply give up if invasion from its neighbors were imminent. We've already had at least two demonstrations that that's not true. Israel has nukes. If they were threatened with, say, Iran developing the ability to hit them with nuclear weapons what do you think they'd do? The other thing you have to understand is that Israel has more effective Middle East intelligence than has the United States and infinitely more effective Middle East intelligence than has Europe. Left on their own, Israelis aren't going to lie down and let the Arabs walk over them. They've been down this road before, in Europe. If a neighbor becomes an existential threat they'll take appropriate action, and the rest of the world won't like the aftermath.

I was at Udon Thani in Thailand in 1973, helping as best I could our attempts to prevent a bloodbath in Cambodia, when the Yom Kippur war broke out. Moshe Dyan, with his eye patch, stopped the invasion cold. A bunch of signs went up on the base with a picture of Moshe and the words: "Hire the handicapped."

If I were an Arab I wouldn't mess with these guys. When the Middle East equivalent of the Nazis come for them, the Israelis aren't going to go quietly this time.

Rob C

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 05:26:01 PM »

Joe, you seem to think that without the U.S. Israel would simply give up if invasion from its neighbors were imminent. We've already had at least two demonstrations that that's not true. Israel has nukes. If they were threatened with, say, Iran developing the ability to hit them with nuclear weapons what do you think they'd do? The other thing you have to understand is that Israel has more effective Middle East intelligence than has the United States and infinitely more effective Middle East intelligence than has Europe. Left on their own, Israelis aren't going to lie down and let the Arabs walk over them. They've been down this road before, in Europe. If a neighbor becomes an existential threat they'll take appropriate action, and the rest of the world won't like the aftermath.

I was at Udon Thani in Thailand in 1973, helping as best I could our attempts to prevent a bloodbath in Cambodia, when the Yom Kippur war broke out. Moshe Dyan, with his eye patch, stopped the invasion cold. A bunch of signs went up on the base with a picture of Moshe and the words: "Hire the handicapped."

If I were an Arab I wouldn't mess with these guys. When the Middle East equivalent of the Nazis come for them, the Israelis aren't going to go quietly this time.


True, but it doesn't excuse or cancel the reality that Palestinian land was taken and given away to another population with nothing worthwhile in exchange.

Neither would I feel too confident about NK folding it's cards and lying down. What some of the people in the cockpit in Washington don't get is that for many nations, face counts, and you don't buy it away. Crowing about magically solving the probability of a nuclear NK before the famous face-to-face even happens, without any agenda apparently down and agreed prior to such a meeting, it smacks of unbelievable arrogance and, as bad, lack of international nous. One could imagine that Vietnam had left some fresh sense of reality in the US and that it understood all peoples do not share the same set of values concerning the worth of a life. David and Goliath, anyone? If the nukes do fly, there are no winners; the shit travels on the winds, and with the effects of global warming on top, they'll get around even faster - and wider.

Now there's food for thought.

JoeKitchen

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Re: New Capital
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 07:02:15 PM »

Joe, you seem to think that without the U.S. Israel would simply give up if invasion from its neighbors were imminent. We've already had at least two demonstrations that that's not true. Israel has nukes. If they were threatened with, say, Iran developing the ability to hit them with nuclear weapons what do you think they'd do? The other thing you have to understand is that Israel has more effective Middle East intelligence than has the United States and infinitely more effective Middle East intelligence than has Europe. Left on their own, Israelis aren't going to lie down and let the Arabs walk over them. They've been down this road before, in Europe. If a neighbor becomes an existential threat they'll take appropriate action, and the rest of the world won't like the aftermath.

I was at Udon Thani in Thailand in 1973, helping as best I could our attempts to prevent a bloodbath in Cambodia, when the Yom Kippur war broke out. Moshe Dyan, with his eye patch, stopped the invasion cold. A bunch of signs went up on the base with a picture of Moshe and the words: "Hire the handicapped."

If I were an Arab I wouldn't mess with these guys. When the Middle East equivalent of the Nazis come for them, the Israelis aren't going to go quietly this time.

Yeah ... so ... what's your point? 

That Israel may may actually survive by using nukes, and then be berated and abandon by every other country, and completely fail and disappear due to attrition through lack of any interaction or support with other countries. 

Or maybe they would use the nukes and somehow Benjamin Netanyahu (assuming he does not go to prison over the recent and credible accusations of corruption) keeps the international community at bay (highly unlikely with how most of the world thinks about the use of nukes currently) and the country does survive. 

In either situation, the USA (and Europe) staying completely out of it only makes us look better to the rest of the Middle East. 

Not to mention, Israel is only making matters worse.  Being an apartheid state and unjustly engaging in military campaigns against an unarmed population is not really good for their image. 

Last, I got news for you, Iran is the next major power in the Middle East.  Nothing we can do will stop.  As of matter of fact we only helped this by castrating Iraq.  We best get use to Iran, because they are not going away.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 07:05:57 PM by JoeKitchen »
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"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
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