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Author Topic: Trouble with adhesive mounting  (Read 792 times)

Jswanson

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Trouble with adhesive mounting
« on: May 12, 2018, 06:03:49 PM »

Hello,

 I have done a few prints mounted to HDPE, Acrylic and Wood using a hand roller and Super77 adhesive. On wood I am having no issue's. HDPE and Acrylic I have a few prints that are coming loose in the center and bubble out. I have a feeling it is due to change of humidity print expands but backing doesn't and the center pops loose to allow expansion. I am not face mounting images to be clear.
 Anyone else ever have this issue and learned a fix? Smaller images I have had done by Bayphoto on styrene do not do this so maybe the adhesive is the problem?

 Any thoughts or assistance is greatly appreciated.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2018, 07:40:35 AM »

HDPE High density Polyethylene ?   Together with Polypropylene and other polyolefins it is hard to create a bond with them. In printing, lacquering, gluing.
https://tantec.com/adhesion-and-surface-treatment-of-plastic.html
That means either using flame treatment on the surface, corona treatment or a chemical change on its polarity. In short; avoid HDPE as a substrate.

PMMA Poly Methyl Metacrylate should not be a problem if the surface is cleaned properly after the usual PE protection foil is removed.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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mearussi

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2018, 10:40:45 AM »

Getting a decent long term bond using 77 or any spray adhesive is difficult since if you don't wait long enough for it to outgas before you put the two pieces together bubbles will form, but if you wait too long the glue will dry out they won't adhere properly. Also if you get so much as one small particle on the glue you can ruin the print.

I gave up using it some time ago and switched to this: 
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/46514-REG/Scotch_56816_Mounting_Adhesive_Roll.html

It's also tricky to use but doesn't have the odor and overspray problem and since there is no outgassing bubbles never form. Others here use Miracle Muck, which as a liquid glue gives you plenty of time to fine tune print positioning.
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Jswanson

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2018, 03:36:17 PM »

HDPE High density Polyethylene ?   Together with Polypropylene and other polyolefins it is hard to create a bond with them. In printing, lacquering, gluing.
https://tantec.com/adhesion-and-surface-treatment-of-plastic.html
That means either using flame treatment on the surface, corona treatment or a chemical change on its polarity. In short; avoid HDPE as a substrate.

PMMA Poly Methyl Metacrylate should not be a problem if the surface is cleaned properly after the usual PE protection foil is removed.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

 
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

 I will google cleaning PMMA acrylic as I didn't do anything but remove the protective film.

 In your experience is Styrene easy to work with?

 You echo what I have been researching on HDPE, hard to adhere to. I was semi aware when I tried it so was sanding it with 150 grit to make small channels to hopefully aid, that didn't work.

 Thank you for the very informative reply, much appreciated.

 
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Jswanson

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2018, 04:00:22 PM »

Getting a decent long term bond using 77 or any spray adhesive is difficult since if you don't wait long enough for it to outgas before you put the two pieces together bubbles will form, but if you wait too long the glue will dry out they won't adhere properly. Also if you get so much as one small particle on the glue you can ruin the print.

I gave up using it some time ago and switched to this: 
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/46514-REG/Scotch_56816_Mounting_Adhesive_Roll.html

It's also tricky to use but doesn't have the odor and overspray problem and since there is no outgassing bubbles never form. Others here use Miracle Muck, which as a liquid glue gives you plenty of time to fine tune print positioning.

 I will look into Miracle Muck and what it can adhere to. Think I recall seeing many different adhesives by them too.

 I found this site while researching, though no prices listed on similar products to what you are using from Scotch. I see they list Bronze, Silver and Gold each listing what it is best used on. I will write them to learn more. http://www.aglinc.com/agl_films_mount-smart.htm
 What are you using the Scotch adhesive to mount to with success?

 Using the Super77 adhesive with wood and Breathing color photo papers Luster and Metallic have done well now for 6 months.

Thank you for the suggestions much appreciated.
 
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BrianBeauban

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2018, 08:56:20 PM »

I will look into Miracle Muck and what it can adhere to. Think I recall seeing many different adhesives by them too.

 I found this site while researching, though no prices listed on similar products to what you are using from Scotch. I see they list Bronze, Silver and Gold each listing what it is best used on. I will write them to learn more. http://www.aglinc.com/agl_films_mount-smart.htm
 What are you using the Scotch adhesive to mount to with success?

 Using the Super77 adhesive with wood and Breathing color photo papers Luster and Metallic have done well now for 6 months.

Thank you for the suggestions much appreciated.

I work for AGL and can answer your questions here. Gold (white carrier) and Bronze (clear carrier) are both solvent acrylic adhesives with Gold being slightly more aggressive. Use Gold in cases where there is a concern for greydown due to use of a dark substrate. Silver is a solvent rubber and is more aggressive on the initial tack and is recommended for low surface energy substrates like polystyrene. I do not recommend mounting to HDPE, LDPE or any polyolefin with these products for the reasons cited earlier. Solvent rubber adhesives are generally less smooth than solvent acrylic. Depending on how big your prints are and how practiced you are these products can be hand applied but best results are obtained with use of a roller laminator.
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Jswanson

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2018, 11:15:32 PM »

I work for AGL and can answer your questions here. Gold (white carrier) and Bronze (clear carrier) are both solvent acrylic adhesives with Gold being slightly more aggressive. Use Gold in cases where there is a concern for greydown due to use of a dark substrate. Silver is a solvent rubber and is more aggressive on the initial tack and is recommended for low surface energy substrates like polystyrene. I do not recommend mounting to HDPE, LDPE or any polyolefin with these products for the reasons cited earlier. Solvent rubber adhesives are generally less smooth than solvent acrylic. Depending on how big your prints are and how practiced you are these products can be hand applied but best results are obtained with use of a roller laminator.

 What would you recommend for wood, like pre-finished birch? And how much for a 43"x150' roll shipped to 55975 Minnesota?

 Would gold work for Styrene, Sintra or Acrylic? 

 Since HDPE doesn't work I am now researching an alternative, hopefully one I can source locally. I liked the HDPE because it was $60 .25"x4'x8' sheet and black :) I know of acrylic locally but not Styrene or Sintra, not exactly sure if Sintra a PVC foam core would work for what I am doing.

So far by hand along with hand roller I have been happy with results to 24"x48". I did a larger one using the method I was doing for 24"x48" and no good got kinks in the print. So I am looking at a manual roller set up 51" wide as I am able to print to 44" wide, something like this https://www.amazon.com/OrangeA-Laminator-Laminating-Machine-Roller/dp/B016VY2E7K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526264594&sr=8-1&keywords=51%22+laminator&dpID=41ZiUcRT4NL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

 I have been going for the no frame look. Here is a 24"x48" on birch plywood with the back frame recessed 2" from edge. Image is mounted and I have it layed flat with weight on top while adhesive cures, then trim edges flush to backing.

 I have a goal to do 40"x80" mounts at some point.

 Thank you for chiming in and any recomendation's you may have Brian.
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BrianBeauban

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 02:13:56 PM »

Q) What would you recommend for wood, like pre-finished birch?

A) Mount Smart Gold would be a good choice but it depends on what the wood was finished with. I recommend dewaxed shellac, but as long as the finish is cured lacquer and urethane finishes are ok too. It never hurts to give it a light sanding with 220 grit sandpaper first.

Q) And how much for a 43"x150' roll shipped to 55975 Minnesota?

A) I'll msg you the roll price. Five years from now when someone reads this I don't want them to think it is still the same.

Q) Would gold work for Styrene, Sintra or Acrylic?

A) Yes.

 Since HDPE doesn't work I am now researching an alternative, hopefully one I can source locally. I liked the HDPE because it was $60 .25"x4'x8' sheet and black :) I know of acrylic locally but not Styrene or Sintra, not exactly sure if Sintra a PVC foam core would work for what I am doing.

Q) So far by hand along with hand roller I have been happy with results to 24"x48". I did a larger one using the method I was doing for 24"x48" and no good got kinks in the print. So I am looking at a manual roller set up 51" wide as I am able to print to 44" wide, something like this https://www.amazon.com/OrangeA-Laminator-Laminating-Machine-Roller/dp/B016VY2E7K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526264594&sr=8-1&keywords=51%22+laminator&dpID=41ZiUcRT4NL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

A) I highly recommend a mechanical means of applying the adhesive and print. The process used for Super77 will not work with film PSA.

Q) I have been going for the no frame look. Here is a 24"x48" on birch plywood with the back frame recessed 2" from edge. Image is mounted and I have it layed flat with weight on top while adhesive cures, then trim edges flush to backing.

A) Once applied there should be no need to use the weights, the curing process happens over time, but the initial tack is more than adequate to keep the print in place. With Super77 you are actually waiting for it to dry.


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Jswanson

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 03:29:24 PM »

Q) What would you recommend for wood, like pre-finished birch?

A) Mount Smart Gold would be a good choice but it depends on what the wood was finished with. I recommend dewaxed shellac, but as long as the finish is cured lacquer and urethane finishes are ok too. It never hurts to give it a light sanding with 220 grit sandpaper first.

 Awesome information thank you.

A) I highly recommend a mechanical means of applying the adhesive and print. The process used for Super77 will not work with film PSA.


 Thank you, yes I am thinking of a manual roller like linked above. Here is a video of one being used with adhesive roll and assume your product is similar. Looking at your website it appears that one side of the adhesive is made bare by coming off the roll then other side remove release layer. I think some others have a release layer on both sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGohl08fiyo&t=350s

 Your time and thoughts are much appreciated thank you.
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patjoja

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2018, 12:41:07 AM »

Quote
So far by hand along with hand roller I have been happy with results to 24"x48". I did a larger one using the method I was doing for 24"x48" and no good got kinks in the print. So I am looking at a manual roller set up 51" wide as I am able to print to 44" wide, something like this https://www.amazon.com/OrangeA-Laminator-Laminating-Machine-Roller/dp/B016VY2E7K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526264594&sr=8-1&keywords=51%22+laminator&dpID=41ZiUcRT4NL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

 I think the link you posted is for a machine to apply a lamination to the outside of the print, not to affix the print to the backing board.

I've had very good success using self-adhesive Gatorfoam from foamboardsource.com.  The technique that Robert Rodriquez illustrates in the video at the top of the foamboardsource website does a good job of explaining how to lay a print down.  I've found this technique to be a lot more stress free than trying to use a spray or rolled on adhesive.

Patrick
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BrianBeauban

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2018, 02:30:13 PM »

I think the link you posted is for a machine to apply a lamination to the outside of the print, not to affix the print to the backing board.

I've had very good success using self-adhesive Gatorfoam from foamboardsource.com.  The technique that Robert Rodriquez illustrates in the video at the top of the foamboardsource website does a good job of explaining how to lay a print down.  I've found this technique to be a lot more stress free than trying to use a spray or rolled on adhesive.

Patrick

This machine will do both operations.
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patjoja

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2018, 02:46:29 PM »

Ok.   :)
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MartyRatcliff

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2018, 05:37:02 PM »

I've had excellent results with DryTac TwinTac. It is acid-free and has lining paper on both sides of the adhesive layer, which makes easier handling of your materials during the separate steps of mounting the adhesive to your print and to your substrate.  It comes in 25.5" and 51" widths and is 150-feet long.  I do use a cold press pressure laminator much like DryTac's ML-25.  The pressure roller makes for quick, bubble-free adhesion. I usually use a cover-sheet over the face of the print during pressure-rolling to prevent damage to the print. The process is very fast. As expensive as it is, I also save every scrap of the stuff for a variety of uses in mounting prints.
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Jswanson

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2018, 10:47:53 PM »

I've had excellent results with DryTac TwinTac. It is acid-free and has lining paper on both sides of the adhesive layer, which makes easier handling of your materials during the separate steps of mounting the adhesive to your print and to your substrate.  It comes in 25.5" and 51" widths and is 150-feet long.  I do use a cold press pressure laminator much like DryTac's ML-25.  The pressure roller makes for quick, bubble-free adhesion. I usually use a cover-sheet over the face of the print during pressure-rolling to prevent damage to the print. The process is very fast. As expensive as it is, I also save every scrap of the stuff for a variety of uses in mounting prints.

 That is great to hear, thank you for sharing your experience using a manual roller and adhesive. I will be ordering a pressure roller wider than 44" end of August and some roll adhesive. I will send Brian a message for a quote of the gold in August some time when ready to order. I am looking forward to doing some printing and mounting again in the near future.
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patjoja

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2018, 10:52:57 AM »

I've had excellent results with DryTac TwinTac. It is acid-free and has lining paper on both sides of the adhesive layer, which makes easier handling of your materials during the separate steps of mounting the adhesive to your print and to your substrate.  It comes in 25.5" and 51" widths and is 150-feet long.  I do use a cold press pressure laminator much like DryTac's ML-25.  The pressure roller makes for quick, bubble-free adhesion. I usually use a cover-sheet over the face of the print during pressure-rolling to prevent damage to the print. The process is very fast. As expensive as it is, I also save every scrap of the stuff for a variety of uses in mounting prints.

Thanks for sharing about the TwinTac.  It looks like a very workable solution compared to many of the other methods I've seen.  However, for my purposes I think Self-Adhesive Gatorfoam is more practical.

I did a quick cost analysis on mounting a 24x36" print using Self-Adhesive Gatorfoam compared to the TwinTac method, and the costs look pretty close, with the Self-Adhesive method a couple dollars cheaper.

However, the two factors that are important to me are that the Self-Adhesive Gatorfoam method does not require the purchase of a cold press (and the space required to use it), and more importantly only one side of the assembly needs to be glued so there's less labor involved, and less chance screwing the gluing process up. 

Patrick
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MartyRatcliff

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2018, 01:02:06 PM »

Quote
However, the two factors that are important to me are that the Self-Adhesive Gatorfoam method does not require the purchase of a cold press (and the space required to use it), and more importantly only one side of the assembly needs to be glued so there's less labor involved, and less chance screwing the gluing process up.

I would encourage you to reconsider the benefit of a pressure roller/laminator. If you haven't watched a few videos on techniques for using them, you might be amazed at how effectively the twin rollers completely eliminate the possibility of a bubble. On a 24x36 mount, a hand roller will be more awkward and a more tedious process.  With the laminator, once you get the first few inches started, the remainder of the print can be mounted in seconds. You will need a table with infeed and outfeed space to accomodate six feet plus another foot or so for handling.  Even with the self adhesive gatorfoam, I think a pressure roller would save time andgive consistent results.
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patjoja

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2018, 01:25:46 PM »

I think either method is viable. 

For me personally, I use heavy printer paper approx. 310 gsm.  Maybe that makes the difference?. The Self Adhesive GF adhesive is very sticky.  Once the print is pressed onto the surface, it's pretty much down.   After tacking one end down, I remove the additional liner and then roll the heavy paper onto the adhesive.  I then take a sheet of archival paper and rub the entire print down by hand from end to end.  I don't use a hand roller as it's totally unnecessary.  The whole process only takes a couple of minutes start to finish. The paper has to be ripped off to get it to come off. 

Everyone should decide what works best for them. That's just the way I do it and I like the results, YMMV.

Regards,

Patrick
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2018, 02:45:46 PM »

For me personally, I use heavy printer paper approx. 310 gsm.  Maybe that makes the difference?.
art papers do seem less likely to bubble, perhaps trapped air can escape through the paper itself.  RC backed papers on the other hand are difficult to mount without bubbling, and a good laminator makes it much easier.
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patjoja

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2018, 02:56:03 PM »

art papers do seem less likely to bubble, perhaps trapped air can escape through the paper itself.  RC backed papers on the other hand are difficult to mount without bubbling, and a good laminator makes it much easier.

Yes, I can see that.

Patrick
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BrianBeauban

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Re: Trouble with adhesive mounting
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2018, 10:23:01 AM »

Heavier paper is much easier and forgiving when hand applying. My best advice is to always test your materials (and process) prior to using them for important work. A roll laminator makes the process easier but is no guarantee of bubble free results. That is determined by careful application, especially in set up.
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