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Author Topic: 40 Megapixel...  (Read 2689 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2018, 10:54:54 AM »

Hi,

Output media has changed, too. In old time we had prints, 16"x20" was large in film camera time. Or we had slides and projected. Now days I may make like 15-20 prints a year. I am still projecting images, now at 4K. But most of us don't print large or project, but publish on Facebook or in best of cases SmugMug. 5K is perfectly good enough for that and I would think that. Smaller formats like 4/3 are pretty good for that, too.

What cell phones lack are zoom lenses and tripods.

There has always been a tendency to smaller systems. Speed Graphic, Leica and Medium format film. Smaller formats are cheaper to buy, easier to carry and will mostly yield better results because of the wider DoF. The wide public doesn't care about 'bokeh'.

Best regards
Erik


Rob,

 This is the beginning of small-sensor computational photography, not the end.

 And in fact stand-alone non-connected cameras seem to be going the way of film, with 99% of the world's pictures now being made on phones.

 Maybe you never used dSLRS? There were a few small ones, and then some experiments and special models based on Kodak backs, and then there was the Nikon D1 and the Canon 1D and then the spectacular 1Ds which by using a fullframe sensor made a camera which is basically still current. Tethered Phase backs stuck on the back of a mechanical Hassy made superb pictures even back then, but it was those first Nikons and Canons which anybody with a laptop could use that changed the photography world.

 In this sense, it looks like the phones are now the first mass-produced items of a new type of multiple-sensor high-compute photo tech, which can eg. overlay images for more rez and DR, assemble 3D models from motion capture, and compute depth maps and extract subjects from the background.

 The phones show us how we will be able to do 3D photoshop retouching -change a nose shape here, a foot position there, all the way to dropping a different model into a background, or even putting a computed model into that background - exactly like car photographers are doing today, in a very specialised way. But they will also soon be able to  load the model of the person up on the net - or retrieve it on the fly.

 Rob, the phones are THE MOST ADVANCED COMPUTERS a normal person can buy, and the camera modules are the most expensive single item on the phone bill-of-materials because THE PHONE IS THE CAMERA WHICH ALL THE KIDS USE. 

 The electronics revolution brought us the Autofocus motor-driven auto-exposure film SLR, then the  PC revolution brought us electronic imaging, but that was just the first chapter of the camera's evolution. The current chapter is being written by phone tech.

 The phones aren't "comparable" to dSLRs, they have decisively moved ahead of them, in the same way a Nikon D1 had moved resolutely beyond the F4. Image quality is not yet there but the all-round capabilities are becoming much greater.

 I was in the park yesterday with my kid. Next to me on the bench a pretty and heavily made-up au pair in a dress spent twenty minutes tossing her hair, and capturing her face with her phone. She didn't need a photographer, nor even a camera. If I were snarky I'd say that all she really needed in life was herself. Selfies have become a major obsession, and it's all due to the phone.
 
Edmund
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Rob C

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2018, 11:01:59 AM »

And so is plastic surgery, or at least the feeling that you need it, so you'll look good in that selfie taken with a much wider lens then any good professional would know not to use when capturing portraits. 

Saw a couple of articles recently siting that plastic surgeons are needing to explain to people that the way they look in selfies is not how they really look, due to the wide angle lenses in cell phones.

In his interview with Alan Yentob for the BBC, Klein asks the videographer shooting him sitting in the back seat of a cab from the front passenger seat, if he's using a wide-angle lens: on being told yes, he remarks: I'll look great!

I never used shorter than 135mm on head shots on 135 format film; on the 6x6 I used 150mm because there wasn't a 'blad 180mm when I was buying. Before, I'd been using 180mm on a Mamiya TLR and the length was perfect... Pity about the hellish parallax solution they provided.

landscapephoto

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2018, 11:29:10 AM »

And so is plastic surgery, or at least the feeling that you need it, so you'll look good in that selfie taken with a much wider lens then any good professional would know not to use when capturing portraits.

Except that new cell phone cameras are able to produce a depth map, so the picture is also a 3D scan of the face. With that info, it is trivial to change the perspective by software. It is also trivial to change the lights and shadows and even to "improve" the features of the face... all without the use of plastic surgery and in real time for video calls.
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landscapephoto

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2018, 11:37:06 AM »

Rob,

 This is the beginning of small-sensor computational photography, not the end.

 And in fact stand-alone non-connected cameras seem to be going the way of film, with 99% of the world's pictures now being made on phones.

 Maybe you never used dSLRS? There were a few small ones, and then some experiments and special models based on Kodak backs, and then there was the Nikon D1 and the Canon 1D and then the spectacular 1Ds which by using a fullframe sensor made a camera which is basically still current. Tethered Phase backs stuck on the back of a mechanical Hassy made superb pictures even back then, but it was those first Nikons and Canons which anybody with a laptop could use that changed the photography world.

 In this sense, it looks like the phones are now the first mass-produced items of a new type of multiple-sensor high-compute photo tech, which can eg. overlay images for more rez and DR, assemble 3D models from motion capture, and compute depth maps and extract subjects from the background.

 The phones show us how we will be able to do 3D photoshop retouching -change a nose shape here, a foot position there, all the way to dropping a different model into a background, or even putting a computed model into that background - exactly like car photographers are doing today, in a very specialised way. But they will also soon be able to  load the model of the person up on the net - or retrieve it on the fly.

 Rob, the phones are THE MOST ADVANCED COMPUTERS a normal person can buy, and the camera modules are the most expensive single item on the phone bill-of-materials because THE PHONE IS THE CAMERA WHICH ALL THE KIDS USE. 

 The electronics revolution brought us the Autofocus motor-driven auto-exposure film SLR, then the  PC revolution brought us electronic imaging, but that was just the first chapter of the camera's evolution. The current chapter is being written by phone tech.

 The phones aren't "comparable" to dSLRs, they have decisively moved ahead of them, in the same way a Nikon D1 had moved resolutely beyond the F4. Image quality is not yet there but the all-round capabilities are becoming much greater.

 I was in the park yesterday with my kid. Next to me on the bench a pretty and heavily made-up au pair in a dress spent twenty minutes tossing her hair, and capturing her face with her phone. She didn't need a photographer, nor even a camera. If I were snarky I'd say that all she really needed in life was herself. Selfies have become a major obsession, and it's all due to the phone.
 
Edmund


That, and when the photo industry produced 10 millions SLRs, the phone industry produces 2 billions smartphones:

This is what the history of camera sales looks like with smartphones included

Edit: link corrected
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 11:19:42 AM by landscapephoto »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 11:42:27 AM »

Of course a great image can be taken with a phone. Just like a great book can be written on a cell phone. Im sure it happens occasionally but it remains rare, awkward and clumsy and is usually done to prove a point.
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tintoreto

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2018, 02:03:12 PM »

I have also made shots in a Art Gallery. All pictures are made with this smartphone:

https://spark.adobe.com/page/kSKOX0UX8uX0U/

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fredjeang2

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2018, 03:47:28 PM »

I have also made shots in a Art Gallery. All pictures are made with this smartphone:

https://spark.adobe.com/page/kSKOX0UX8uX0U/
Bacon! One of my fav.
Great pictures can be taken by a phone. And there are many good stuff out there shooted with phones.
The thing is that the phone is always with us, the real camera no.
I don't see it as a competitor but a complement. Maybe Bruce Gilden had use a cellphone in the streets of NY if he'd been born nowdays and feeded the Magnum Instagram.
For people not involved into imagery, it's all they'll ever need and it's the bigger market.
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2018, 07:55:01 PM »

Selfies have become a major obsession, and it's all due to the phone.
 
Edmund

Selfies + smartphones + social media = narcissism pandemic

Rob C

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2018, 04:12:32 AM »

Selfies + smartphones + social media = narcissism pandemic

I'm not so sure.

Rather do I see a massive attack of social insecurity, with people terrified of being left "out of the loop", as it were. Personally, I see a loop more as symbolic of the noose.

I suppose it might be argued that yes, it could be a form of reverse narcissism, with a dominant ego replaced by an anxious one.

Perhaps it's an affliction of the young. I think older people might have had the time to take stock, measure their lives against some idea of a yardstick, and come to the realisation that they are no better than, and probably just as bad as their neighbours. At eight minutes past ten in the morning, this seems extremely likely.

A saving grace could be that the selfie allows a form of portraiture in circumstances where no other models are available.

Rob

KLaban

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2018, 04:44:36 AM »

Selfies + smartphones + social media = narcissism pandemic

It seems that for those of a certain generation LuLa is but an acceptable form of social media.

;-)
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fredjeang2

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2018, 04:59:59 AM »

I'm not so sure.

Rather do I see a massive attack of social insecurity, with people terrified of being left "out of the loop", as it were. Personally, I see a loop more as symbolic of the noose.

I suppose it might be argued that yes, it could be a form of reverse narcissism, with a dominant ego replaced by an anxious one.

Perhaps it's an affliction of the young. I think older people might have had the time to take stock, measure their lives against some idea of a yardstick, and come to the realisation that they are no better than, and probably just as bad as their neighbours. At eight minutes past ten in the morning, this seems extremely likely.

A saving grace could be that the selfie allows a form of portraiture in circumstances where no other models are available.

Rob
Rob, the ego is always dominant and narcissist by definition. Nothing changed since the cavemen since the ego is insecure.
Warhol predicted the 15mn of fame for everyone's societies while FB and cellphones didn't exist yet.
But he knew it by investigating the idiosyncracie of post-industrial's societies.
Give a caveman a phone and you'll quickly see selfies next to the killed mammouth, war trophees, how to make proper fire,
My cave is better than yours...it's all about fetishes, social status, conditionned beleifs and adquired cultural codes, competition and appearances, needs, desires, lacks, fears and all the opposites.
It's only a question of available tools at one point of the "timeline" but the very same collective ego remains.
The phone didn't change anything and it goes with social network. They are linked.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 05:59:28 AM by fredjeang2 »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2018, 05:30:58 AM »

Hi,

The link you posted does not work.

Try this one: https://petapixel.com/2015/04/09/this-is-what-the-history-of-camera-sales-looks-like-with-smartphones-included/

Smart girls carry smart phones because they are really useful. Yes, they also make pictures and they can easily share those images.

Smart phones pretty well do what the Leica did in the 60-es, f/8 and be there photography.

What smart phones lack is big telefoto lenses and high ISO capability. Obviously, they don't have 100 million high quality pixels.

Now, I am not a smart gal, just an old guy. So, I carry 33 lb of equipment on planned walks. I shoot around 7000 images a year and print something like 25 of those.

Best regards
Erik


That, and when the photo industry produced 10 millions SLRs, the phone industry produces 2 billions smartphones:

This is what the history of camera sales looks like with smartphones included
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KLaban

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2018, 06:32:03 AM »

I'm not a smart girl with a smart phone either, but I'm married to a smart girl who owns and uses a smart phone. I have to admit owning one - a smart phone - is a very smart move.
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Rob C

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2018, 06:52:15 AM »

I'm not a smart girl with a smart phone either, but I'm married to a smart girl who owns and uses a smart phone. I have to admit owning one - a smart phone - is a very smart move.


I know you didn't want to say it publicly, but let's both admit it: our smart girls were always better than any set of smart 'phones.

Hell, mine - girl not 'phone - even kept me looking smart!

:-)

Rob C

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2018, 07:34:38 AM »

Rob, the ego is always dominant and narcissist by definition. Nothing changed since the cavemen since the ego is insecure.
Warhol predicted the 15mn of fame for everyone's societies while FB and cellphones didn't exist yet.
But he knew it by investigating the idiosyncracie of post-industrial's societies.
Give a caveman a phone and you'll quickly see selfies next to the killed mammouth, war trophees, how to make proper fire,
My cave is better than yours...it's all about fetishes, social status, conditionned beleifs and adquired cultural codes, competition and appearances, needs, desires, lacks, fears and all the opposites.
It's only a question of available tools at one point of the "timeline" but the very same collective ego remains.
The phone didn't change anything and it goes with social network. They are linked.


I think folks credit our Andy with too much wisdom. He was not the first smart ass on Earth, and script writers had been doing much better as a matter of routine since movies began; let's not even bother going back as far as Shakespeare. The one-liner has been a staple of spoken art since, yeah, the first cavie's grunt indicated he fancied Miss Cavie next door.

But yeah, he was good at marketing and media manipulation (Andy was, I don't know about Flint).

Rob

KLaban

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2018, 07:53:47 AM »


I know you didn't want to say it publicly, but let's both admit it: our smart girls were always better than any set of smart 'phones.

Hell, mine - girl not 'phone - even kept me looking smart!

:-)

Of course.

But put one of these smart phones in the hands of a very smart girl and the result is I've no need for one - phone, that is, not girl.
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Rob C

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2018, 08:02:32 AM »

Of course.

But put one of these smart phones in the hands of a very smart girl and the result is I've no need for one - phone, that is, not girl.


Ah, Keith, if needs were able to solve themselves!

But my own smarty lies dormant most of the time - intentionally - because I'm smart enough to know that it serves me best as an emergency thing when I need its services. I hate the very thought that anyone could interrupt me at any old time they felt like it. Not that I'm doing anything much that would be ruined by interruption, of course, but I like to control the gates! Being one of the few things left within my control, I cling to that semblance of authority wth unnatural relish.

:-)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2018, 10:40:35 AM »

Hi,

I am actually quiet serious. My experience is a bit that guys are more oriented towards technology while dolls are more oriented towards results and things that actually work. That said, let's look at real world scenario...

I just had lunch with two colleagues and we go back to office...

 
  • My male colleague sees some interesting insect, picks up his Android phone and shoots a picture.
  • My female colleague picks up some point and shoot from one of her pockets and takes a picture. In the other pocket she has an Android phone and an iPhone.
  • Me, I don't know how to use my Android phone anyway. Also, I have no tripod. So i don't get any picture.
  • Just to add, that story is for real. We are all nerds. My male colleague would not touch anything that is not open source.
  • My female colleague is really an artist, but she is also a computer nerd and she likes half eaten apples.
  • Me, I am an old fashioned photographer.

So, in the end, I was the only one not getting an image of that insect.

But, I sort of think that female photographers often care more about getting the images while males often want to use the best gear but get no images...

Just to say, all of us are software engineers, working with simulating nuclear power plants

Best regards
Erik


Ah, Keith, if needs were able to solve themselves!

But my own smarty lies dormant most of the time - intentionally - because I'm smart enough to know that it serves me best as an emergency thing when I need its services. I hate the very thought that anyone could interrupt me at any old time they felt like it. Not that I'm doing anything much that would be ruined by interruption, of course, but I like to control the gates! Being one of the few things left within my control, I cling to that semblance of authority wth unnatural relish.

:-)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 10:44:41 AM by ErikKaffehr »
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landscapephoto

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2018, 11:27:46 AM »

Selfies + smartphones + social media = narcissism pandemic

I don't think any of this has changed. Last century, all cameras already had a self-timer for selfies. People were showing around prints of themselves in front of well known vistas. People passed arounds pictures of their kids and pets for their relatives to admire. And if you did not admire enough, you lost a friend.

Now, they "unfriend" you on facebook, is that different?
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KLaban

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Re: 40 Megapixel...
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2018, 12:21:41 PM »

Hi,

I am actually quiet serious. My experience is a bit that guys are more oriented towards technology while dolls are more oriented towards results and things that actually work. That said, let's look at real world scenario...

I just had lunch with two colleagues and we go back to office...

 
  • My male colleague sees some interesting insect, picks up his Android phone and shoots a picture.
  • My female colleague picks up some point and shoot from one of her pockets and takes a picture. In the other pocket she has an Android phone and an iPhone.
  • Me, I don't know how to use my Android phone anyway. Also, I have no tripod. So i don't get any picture.
  • Just to add, that story is for real. We are all nerds. My male colleague would not touch anything that is not open source.
  • My female colleague is really an artist, but she is also a computer nerd and she likes half eaten apples.
  • Me, I am an old fashioned photographer.

So, in the end, I was the only one not getting an image of that insect.

But, I sort of think that female photographers often care more about getting the images while males often want to use the best gear but get no images...

Just to say, all of us are software engineers, working with simulating nuclear power plants

Best regards
Erik

Erik, so am I.

If it wasn't for the fact that my own very smart girl owned and used a smart phone that we rely on for so many thoroughly useful applications then I'd find myself in the position of having to buy and use one myself. Quite frankly we'd be up sh1t creek without a paddle if we didn't have one.
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