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Author Topic: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.  (Read 107964 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #740 on: June 21, 2018, 10:20:26 am »

Are not most iPhones made in China?
Sure, some of the stuff they make is very good. They're stealing our designs and forcing companies who want to sell there to give them all their proprietary secrets and manufacturing prowess.  But even with that, they make some shoddy stuff. 

A Soviet communist once said the West will sell us the rope that we'll hang them with.  It's actually worse than that with China.  We're actually giving them the design so they can build the factory to make the rope they will hang us with. 

We're real fools. 

Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #741 on: June 21, 2018, 10:22:49 am »

Ray, I hate to keep calling you out about this statement but it bears repeating that enhanced plant growth is meaningless without improved nutrient production. 

Meaningless to AGW alarmists perhaps, but not meaningless to more rational and practical people.  ;)

The nutritional value of food is far more influenced by the food processing industry than by modest increases in the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, and far more influenced by the type of farming techniques used and the soil quality, than by the levels of CO2.

I'll repeat, because you seem to have missed the point, increased levels of atmospheric CO2 increase both the quantity of biomass and the quantity of nutritional elements in the crops.

However, the increase in nutritional elements is not as great as the increase in biomass, unless greater quantities of those nutritional elements are added to the soil in order to reduce the dilution effect.

In other words, (in case some readers are having difficulty in grasping the point), if all conditions remain the same, the same amount of water used in the same type of soil with the same amount of artificial fertilizers applied, and the same temperatures and degree of sunlight, and so on, then increased levels of CO2 will tend to increase biomass at a greater rate than the increase in the uptake of nutritional elements. Got it?

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We are not animals who can convert cellulose to sugar for further metabolism so if the plant growth is solely biomass it is near worthless to humans.

I wasn't aware that plants can grow without essential nutrients. Are you sure you know what you are talking about, Alan?  ;)

From  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition

"There are seventeen most important nutrients for plants. Plants must obtain the following mineral nutrients from their growing medium:-
the macronutrients: nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), potassium (K), calcium (Ca), sulfur (S), magnesium (Mg), carbon (C), oxygen(O), hydrogen (H)

the micronutrients (or trace minerals): iron (Fe), boron (B), chlorine (Cl), manganese (Mn), zinc (Zn), copper (Cu), molybdenum (Mo), nickel (Ni)"


There are other micronutrients which might not be essential for plant growth but are essential for the good health of humans. Selenium is one example. There are many crops that are claimed to be good sources of Selenium, such as Brazil Nuts, Brown Rice, Sunflower Seeds, Mushrooms, Spinach, Oatmeal.

If there is no Selenium in the soil, it will not prevent the above-mentioned plants from growing, so one can't be certain what the levels of selenium might be whenever one buys one of the above foods.

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Enhanced CO2 may also lead to increased growth of weeds that compete with food crops for nutrients and may necessitate increased use of herbicides. We know that CO2 is necessary for plant growth but in isolation, the statement that higher levels are good is near worthless.

The are basically two types of plants, C3 and C4. Most food crops are C3. Most weeds are C4. C3 plants respond more to elevated levels of CO2. C4 plants respond less. Therefore, logically, weeds should be less of a problem in elevated levels of CO2, on average. Okay?

« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 10:31:47 am by Ray »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #742 on: June 21, 2018, 10:32:26 am »

Ray, I hate to keep calling you out about this statement but it bears repeating that enhanced plant growth is meaningless without improved nutrient production.  We are not animals who can convert cellulose to sugar for further metabolism so if the plant growth is solely biomass it is near worthless to humans.  Enhanced CO2 may also lead to increased growth of weeds that compete with food crops for nutrients and may necessitate increased use of herbicides.  We know that CO2 is necessary for plant growth but in isolation, the statement that higher levels are good is near worthless.

Are you saying that the nutritional value of my cupcakes is decreasing?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 10:36:14 am by Alan Klein »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #743 on: June 21, 2018, 11:13:14 am »

Well, Jeremy, Alan G. just did: “... enhanced plant growth is meaningless...”

Out of context quotations to make a point do not help one's credibility. Alan G. said more than the 5 words you quoted. So without context, your quoting of him is meaningless.

But by all means feel free to not contribute anything useful to the discussion. We live in a free society.

And now back to the topic of exchanging useful information, coming from a financial outlook:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/06/report-world-trending-to-hit-50-renewables-11-coal-by-2050/
"Report: World trending to hit 50% renewables, 11% coal by 2050
And falling battery costs are a big part of why. "

"The report also says that gas consumption will increase only very modestly. Gas use is projected to decline dramatically in Europe and increase in the US, China, and India. Everywhere, gas and batteries will play major roles in smoothing out the supply curves of renewable-heavy utilities."

In my country, the amount of money that's being restituted for surplus (delivered back to the grid) energy that's produced by Solar Energy PV's is going to be reduced. The reason is that these PVs are becoming so efficient (and energy conservation is improving at the same time) that they often start breaking-even in about 4 years instead of 7 years. This also sparks the need for renewal of the energy grid, because too much PV energy flowing back into the grid could otherwise cause shutdowns.

The role of conventional energy production is changing/shrinking to being more a source of peak energy supply (for when the wind doesn't blow and at night), so the need for natural gas is reducing. See attached graphics.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #744 on: June 21, 2018, 11:22:12 am »

...
"Report: World trending to hit 50% renewables, 11% coal by 2050
And falling battery costs are a big part of why. "
...

Cheers,
Bart

Bart, That's great if it happens.  No one, I don't believe, is suggesting we should continue to pollute the air, CO2 or not.  And if that's the way the markets develop, more power to it.  I have no interest in oil stocks.  IF someone could figure out how to use water to power my car, it would be terrific. 

The point that many are making is that government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers in the energy markets using regulations and tax subsidies that take money away from other important endeavors that may be more valuable.  It also distorts markets and often defeats better solutions that would happen if the forces of a free market are allowed to play out. 

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #745 on: June 21, 2018, 11:25:14 am »

Sure, some of the stuff they make is very good. They're stealing our designs and forcing companies who want to sell there to give them all their proprietary secrets and manufacturing prowess.  But even with that, they make some shoddy stuff. 
Every manufacturing country makes shoddy stuff.  The American automobile industry got taken to the cleaners by Japan in the 1970s for just that reason.  Americans now tend to prefer South Korean designed washers and dryers to American made ones because of innovation and quality.  China has been in violation of intellectual property laws and that's being remedied through existing treaties and agreements and has been for several years.  Lots of computer parts are manufactured in China to an extremely high quality standard and many process improvements came from work done on Chinese manufacturing lines. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #746 on: June 21, 2018, 11:45:23 am »

... China has been in violation of intellectual property laws and that's being remedied through existing treaties and agreements and has been for several years.  ...

Are you serious?  China is stealing the world blind. Not only do they break into military and commercial secret sites to steal secrets, they force foreign companies to turn over all their design details if they want to do business in China.

Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #747 on: June 21, 2018, 11:48:46 am »

Of course, while they're busy stealing and copying our designs, hopefully they're not on the leading edge of developing new and innovative products.  So they'll always be behind the curve.  In the meanwhile though, their factories are putting some of our factories out of business.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #748 on: June 21, 2018, 11:50:57 am »

... "Report: World trending to hit 50% renewables, 11% coal by 2050...

And who has ever been against it?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #749 on: June 21, 2018, 12:34:33 pm »

The are basically two types of plants, C3 and C4. Most food crops are C3. Most weeds are C4. C3 plants respond more to elevated levels of CO2. C4 plants respond less. Therefore, logically, weeds should be less of a problem in elevated levels of CO2, on average. Okay?

No, weird logic is not okay.

Weeds will prevent/inhibit growth of other plant material. It's irrelevant that in isolation they might respond slower to elevated CO2 levels.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 01:00:30 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #750 on: June 21, 2018, 01:11:26 pm »

Of course, while they're busy stealing and copying our designs, hopefully they're not on the leading edge of developing new and innovative products.  So they'll always be behind the curve.  In the meanwhile though, their factories are putting some of our factories out of business.
They are already ahead in compact battery production, Elon Musk not withstanding.  Berkshire-Hathaway has a big investment in a Chinese battery company.  They are also on the cutting edge of electric vehicles.  A lot of their factories that are putting ours out of business are from US based companies shifting manufacturing over there!
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #751 on: June 21, 2018, 07:11:00 pm »

... A lot of their factories that are putting ours out of business are from US based companies shifting manufacturing over there!

That's the problem.  When companies shift over there to manufacture, China forces them to provide all their secret manufacturing processes to China.  Then they use that info to start their own manufacturing companies. Then they put our companies over here out of business.   We don't do that to foreign companies working here.  Just like their higher tariffs, they're screwing us.  The administration is trying to fight back.  Even if you don't like the president, why not support a policy that helps America?  How would you feel if your company went to China and closed down operations here?

Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #752 on: June 21, 2018, 09:41:23 pm »

No, weird logic is not okay.

Weeds will prevent/inhibit growth of other plant material. It's irrelevant that in isolation they might respond slower to elevated CO2 levels.

Cheers,
Bart

Of course weeds can inhibit the growth of other plants that we find useful, such as food crops. That's why they are called weeds. A weed is a plant we have no use for.

All forms of life compete for resources as they grow and multiply.

The issue is, will increased levels of CO2 give weeds a competitive advantage? What types of plants respond most to increases in CO2 levels?

If it is true that most food crops are of the C3 variety, and most weeds are of the C4 variety, which is what I understand to be the case (but I could be wrong), then it logically follows that generally, and on average, weeds are unlikely to become more of a problem as a result of increased CO2 levels.

However, weeds will still be a problem. CO2 is not the only factor which controls plant growth, just as CO2 is not the only factor which affects climate.

If a farmer is growing a C4 type crop, such as corn or sugarcane, in an area where C3 types of weeds flourish, then enhanced levels of CO2 could logically make the problem of weeds worse, unless successful countermeasures are taken.

The following article explains the situation. http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/two-rival-kinds-of-plants-and-their-future/

"So whereas rising temperatures benefit C4, rising carbon-dioxide levels do not. In fact, C3 plants get a greater boost from high carbon dioxide levels than C4. Nearly 500 separate experiments confirm that if carbon-dioxide levels roughly double from preindustrial levels, rice and wheat yields will be on average 36% and 33% higher, while corn yields will increase by only 24%.

Another complication is that C4 has a larger share of the market in weeds. Of the 18 most pestilential weeds that trouble farmers, 14 are C4. So, all else being equal, and especially in temperate regions where C3 crops dominate, the battle against weeds should get easier as carbon dioxide levels rise-because C3 crops can accelerate their growth more than C4 weeds can.

Last year, Qing Zeng of the Institute of Soil Science in Nanjing and his colleagues published the first test of this prediction on a real farm. By emitting carbon dioxide over plots of rice, they enriched the air to almost twice the ambient level of CO2. They then measured the growth rate of both rice and its worst weed, barnyard grass (a C4 plant), in the experimental plots, compared with control plots nearby.

The ear weight of the rice was enhanced by 37.6% while the growth of the barnyard grass was actually reduced by 47.9%, because the vigorous rice shaded out the weeds. So the good news is that rising carbon-dioxide levels are, on balance, slightly helping crops (mostly C3) compete against weeds (mostly C4) rather than vice versa."


However, I do understand that there are many complicated interacting factors that affect plant growth, such as temperature, amount of sunlight, amount of water, microbial content of the soil, amounts and types of fertilizers present in the soil, and so on,  and sometimes these other factors might result in a C4 type of weed out-competing a C3 type of crop.

My point is that generally, on average, on a world-wide scale, it is more likely that increased CO2 levels will help to reduce the problem of weeds rather than increase the problem.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #753 on: June 21, 2018, 10:00:12 pm »

Ray, maybe you can answer these regarding how increased CO2 effects plants growth and nutricious value in the food and how it effect total CO2 in the air.

IS CO2 a catalyst that allows the food to grow more by extracting the additional growth from the land and air? 

Would this account why the nutrients begin to decrease because there are only so much of it in the soil so relative to total food production, the nutrient percent total in the food is less?

Or does CO2 go into the plant in it's actual makeup or maybe just stripping the carbon from CO2 which is why it plants also act as a carbon sink?

Or does all happen?

Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #754 on: June 21, 2018, 11:50:31 pm »

West Antarctic rising could halt melting glaciers.  Then again, it could get worse.

https://www.axios.com/west-antarctica-rising-could-halt-melting-glaciers-325bec72-e20e-47d1-bb5f-2e1d2f9f4857.html

Peter McLennan

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #755 on: June 22, 2018, 12:09:27 am »

That's the problem.  When companies shift over there to manufacture, China forces them to provide all their secret manufacturing processes to China.  Then they use that info to start their own manufacturing companies. Then they put our companies over here out of business.   We don't do that to foreign companies working here.  Just like their higher tariffs, they're screwing us.  The administration is trying to fight back.  Even if you don't like the president, why not support a policy that helps America?  How would you feel if your company went to China and closed down operations here?

Those are your favourite "market forces" at work, Alan. Those companies didn't move their factories to China because it felt good.  They did it because they could make more money. 

That's just capitalism.  Unregulated capitalism.



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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #756 on: June 22, 2018, 12:24:28 am »

Those are your favourite "market forces" at work, Alan. Those companies didn't move their factories to China because it felt good.  They did it because they could make more money. 

That's just capitalism.  Unregulated capitalism.




...and China stole their secrets of manufacturing.   The companies were short-sighted and didn't care about the long term effect.  You don't give away your family jewels.  Stupid.  What good is it if a few years down the road, China now out manufacturers you and you lose everything?  I'm not sure how other governments can prevent Chinese larceny.  They're doing it to companies in many countries.  Maybe you have a good idea. 

Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #757 on: June 22, 2018, 08:38:29 am »

IS CO2 a catalyst that allows the food to grow more by extracting the additional growth from the land and air? 

Alan,
As I understand, plants extract CO2 from the atmosphere as their own food, and convert that food to glucose and carbohydrates through the process of photosynthesis, using sunlight, and water from the soil.

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Would this account why the nutrients begin to decrease because there are only so much of it in the soil so relative to total food production, the nutrient percent total in the food is less?

This appears to be the case. I imagine if plant growth were increased due to the application of more water and more nitrogen fertilizer, without any increase in CO2 levels, the nutrient percentage in the plant would also decline.

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Or does CO2 go into the plant in it's actual makeup or maybe just stripping the carbon from CO2 which is why it plants also act as a carbon sink?

As I understand, both plants and soil act as a carbon sink. The oxygen in our atmosphere is basically a waste product from the photosynthetic conversion of CO2 as food for plants, and for autotrophic bacteria such as cyanobacteria. Billions of years ago, there was very little oxygen in the atmosphere.

Plants expire oxygen as a waste product, but love CO2. We humans love oxygen, rely upon plants for our survival, but expire CO2 as a waste product, which is probably why so many people find it easy to demonize CO2 and call it a pollutant.  ;D
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #758 on: June 22, 2018, 11:32:59 am »

Ray, I think I recall reading once that plants use oxygen at night.  Is that true and what effect on the atmosphere, CO2, global warming, etc would that have?

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #759 on: June 22, 2018, 04:26:53 pm »

Ray, maybe you can answer these regarding how increased CO2 effects plants growth and nutricious value in the food and how it effect total CO2 in the air.

IS CO2 a catalyst that allows the food to grow more by extracting the additional growth from the land and air? 
No, CO2 is merely taken up by the plant and converted to sugar which is then further metabolized to compounds found within the plant and seeds which are needed for propogation.

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Would this account why the nutrients begin to decrease because there are only so much of it in the soil so relative to total food production, the nutrient percent total in the food is less?
plants require usable nitrogen to make amino acids that are the building blocks of proteins and numerous trace minerals that enzymes use to catalyze various reactions or are part of oxidation/reduction reactions.  Some nutrients are present in the soil at sufficient amounts and others (most notably nitrogen fertilizers) need to be added.

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Or does CO2 go into the plant in it's actual makeup or maybe just stripping the carbon from CO2 which is why it plants also act as a carbon sink?
the majority of  CO2 goes into cellulose, hemi-cellulose and lignin production which are the structural building blocks of the plant/tree.  Without these compounds plants/trees could not stand upright. 
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