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Author Topic: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?  (Read 3335 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2018, 04:02:08 PM »

If all you are using the application for is scanning that would be sufficient; but as I mentioned, there is a corporate philosophy which sees SilverFast as a complete solution for photo ingestion, editing and output.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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andrewrodney

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2018, 04:07:04 PM »

If all you are using the application for is scanning that would be sufficient; but as I mentioned, there is a corporate philosophy which sees SilverFast as a complete solution for photo ingestion, editing and output.
I don't see how the settings I've removed are at all necessary for anything, can you explain how their philosophy is such they are needed? What's the difference between selecting ColorSync/ICM versus RGB? RGB what? Why would I set Monitor to anything but ColorSync? For the 3rd dropdown, same question and if I want CIElab, why not simply select that option in the appropriate dropdown below (output/printer)?
Further, why is it when I toggle Input from ColorSync to None, Input (with what has to be an already set scanner profile) toggles to grayed out while ever other option remains the same? What proposes does that serve when I'm told, that scanner profile is still being used?
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2018, 04:10:45 PM »

I'll be interested to read their feedback on your suggestions.
Neither of us should hold our breaths....
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2018, 06:57:38 PM »

I don't see how the settings I've removed are at all necessary for anything, can you explain how their philosophy is such they are needed? What's the difference between selecting ColorSync/ICM versus RGB? RGB what? Why would I set Monitor to anything but ColorSync? For the 3rd dropdown, same question and if I want CIElab, why not simply select that option in the appropriate dropdown below (output/printer)?
Further, why is it when I toggle Input from ColorSync to None, Input (with what has to be an already set scanner profile) toggles to grayed out while ever other option remains the same? What proposes does that serve when I'm told, that scanner profile is still being used?

Andrew, I hear you, but life's too short - it's their application, their design, best you raise these issues with them and let them explain as they wish, or not. I've confined my interest in it to understanding how it works so I can get what I need out of it, I've explained how to manage these settings in my book so the customers can get what they need out of it, and I'm leaving it at that. I'd only get agitated if it produced fatal errors I can't deal with, but that's not the case.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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andrewrodney

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2018, 07:18:15 PM »

Andrew, I hear you, but life's too short - it's their application, their design, best you raise these issues with them and let them explain as they wish, or not.
Not sure they will, that's why I've asked the 'guy who wrote the book'  ;)
Quote
I've confined my interest in it to understanding how it works so I can get what I need out of it, I've explained how to manage these settings in my book so the customers can get what they need out of it, and I'm leaving it at that.
Do you cover those items above in the book? If so, I'll buy it.  You commented that: If all you are using the application for is scanning that would be sufficient; but as I mentioned, there is a corporate philosophy which sees SilverFast as a complete solution for photo ingestion, editing and output.
Does the book only cover scanning or are those areas used outside scanning covered such I can get an understanding of why they exist?
I don't expect them to change anything and I'm unlikely to use the product much only because I don't scan much. I only dug up the old V750 and dug into their software because they asked me to look over the new targets and comment (probably for marketing reasons for their web site). That said, when people ask for recommendations on what software to use to drive their scanners, I'm going to recommend this product. But I'd like to have a better idea behind the color management hurt me buttons they appear to provide.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2018, 09:43:50 PM »

Not sure they will, that's why I've asked the 'guy who wrote the book'  ;)  Do you cover those items above in the book? If so, I'll buy it.  You commented that: If all you are using the application for is scanning that would be sufficient; but as I mentioned, there is a corporate philosophy which sees SilverFast as a complete solution for photo ingestion, editing and output.
Does the book only cover scanning or are those areas used outside scanning covered such I can get an understanding of why they exist?
I don't expect them to change anything and I'm unlikely to use the product much only because I don't scan much. I only dug up the old V750 and dug into their software because they asked me to look over the new targets and comment (probably for marketing reasons for their web site). That said, when people ask for recommendations on what software to use to drive their scanners, I'm going to recommend this product. But I'd like to have a better idea behind the color management hurt me buttons they appear to provide.

The book is structured to do two basic things: (1) explain all the tools and controls in the SilverFast application for scanning and editing scans - what they do and how to use them, and (2) how to use SilverFast for scanning and photo editing as part of structured workflows involving LSI's HDR application and/or Lightroom and/or Photoshop in various integrated configurations; different workflow structures draw more or less heavily on the several applications included, depending on the details of each structure. In the course of doing that, I explain how to set the CMS options as a function of these various workflow options. 
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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andrewrodney

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2018, 09:55:17 PM »

The book is structured to do two basic things: (1) explain all the tools and controls in the SilverFast application for scanning and editing scans - what they do and how to use them, and (2) how to use SilverFast for scanning and photo editing as part of structured workflows involving LSI's HDR application and/or Lightroom and/or Photoshop in various integrated configurations; different workflow structures draw more or less heavily on the several applications included, depending on the details of each structure. In the course of doing that, I explain how to set the CMS options as a function of these various workflow options.
Fair enough, so why do I need to set any options in the top three drop down menus?
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2018, 10:52:36 PM »

Fair enough, so why do I need to set any options in the top three drop down menus?

I thought I explained in Reply 71 how the top three interact with the middle three and what they all do for providing CM options. No doubt there are different ways of designing this GUI and that's the way they structured it, so for an explanation of WHY they designed that particular configuration the way they did I think it's best you ask them.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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andrewrodney

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2018, 11:13:00 PM »

I thought I explained in Reply 71 how the top three interact with the middle three and what they all do for providing CM options.
I don't understand the explanation, that is why I'd pick what's available; sorry.
For example:
Why would I set any to None? Why when I set Input to None does why does the other Input below gray out yet still scan into that color space?
Why is there Working Space set for Monitor and why would I set it to None?
Working Space>Output can be set to ColorSync or RGB (or CIElab), what's the difference between CS and RGB?
And why does a printer profile show up as being embedded when none of the drop down's have it listed anywhere?
Yes, the top interacts with the bottom. But why?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 11:18:47 PM by andrewrodney »
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2018, 08:36:52 AM »

I don't understand the explanation, that is why I'd pick what's available; sorry.
For example:
Why would I set any to None? Why when I set Input to None does why does the other Input below gray out yet still scan into that color space?
Why is there Working Space set for Monitor and why would I set it to None?
Working Space>Output can be set to ColorSync or RGB (or CIElab), what's the difference between CS and RGB?
And why does a printer profile show up as being embedded when none of the drop down's have it listed anywhere?
Yes, the top interacts with the bottom. But why?

Well, instead of worrying about why the options are structured in the way they are, it is more operationally useful to know what to pick in order to get the results you want, so I focus on that. If you want to get into the whys and wherefores of the GUI design philosophy, I suggest that matter is best discussed with the designers.

That said, I can tell you what I would do to simplify all this, and I may end up pretty close to what you demonstrated above, but it isn't operationally significant because unless they decide to change it, users will have to work with it the way it is, and that is doable with some instruction regardless of the scope for simplification.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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andrewrodney

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2018, 08:45:32 AM »

I’m not worrying Mark, I was hoping to learn the ideas behind the options but I guess I’ll have to find another resource to do so.  :-[

If someone asked me to explain why one would pick the Covert vs. Preserve policy options in Photoshop’s Color settings and the ramifications on the data and workflow, I (and you) could. No worries at all. I’m hoping for the same explanation for the three drop down menus shown in my screenshots!
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2018, 09:13:10 AM »

I’m not worrying Mark, I was hoping to learn the ideas behind the options but I guess I’ll have to find another resource to do so.  :-[


In a nutshell: the first two allow you to turn colour management of each of those parts of the colour management chain on or off. I don't know that there is any really important reason to turn the scanner profile off unless it's needed for making profiles not using SilverFast's Auto-IT8 process, but one could achieve this by selecting <none> for Input in the second section. Turning off a monitor profile is something I can't see ANY reason to do. As for the third, it gives you the choice of embedding nothing, or a printer profile or a Color Working Space such as ProPhoto etc. Normally you would select the latter, especially for onward consistency with Lr or Ps working spaces in onward editing scenarios, but if you want to softproof an eventual print from a scan, it allows that, which can be handy. Or if you wanted to embed say a press profile (with which you have softproofed) in a scan for later use in a press operation, it allows that. Once you've made those choices, the next section, as I've mentioned above, enables one to make the corresponding profile selections.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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andrewrodney

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2018, 11:53:37 AM »

In a nutshell: the first two allow you to turn colour management of each of those parts of the colour management chain on or off.
That's what I'd expect, that's not what the product tells me. Let's simply start with that one dropdown. See the differences below in terms of what's embedded with the option for Input>Working space set to either ColorSync or None. None should be none. It isn't:
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 12:06:41 PM by andrewrodney »
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2018, 12:11:00 PM »

As for the third, it gives you the choice of embedding nothing, or a printer profile or a Color Working Space such as ProPhoto etc.
I don't see an option to ever embed nothing, dropdown as shown set to <RGB> embeds ProPhoto. But so does ColorSync (a profile that's not selected ANYWHERE); what's the difference between these two and why is my printer profile showing up here? Output/Printer set to None. Do you see the same on your end?
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2018, 01:26:58 PM »

For both replies 92 and 93, note that if you don't want to embed any profile, you don't check the box beside "Embed ICC Profile".

Now let's revert to Reply 92: Starting with your first illustration: You've turned off input to working space, meaning you've turned off your scanner profile, so beside Input there is only an exclamation point, no profile. That's correct behaviour.

Let's forget about the monitor profile, and just assume it should always be active by default for all normal photographic work.

For working space to output as I've mentioned before, this is for the colour management policy dealing with final output. You've selected RGB. When you select RGB it embeds your scanner profile unless you have Embed ICC Profile unchecked.

For your second illustration: Input - Working Space: you've selected Colorsync, so it selects the scanner profile, which is correct behaviour. Working Space- Output is unchanged from above.

For your third illustration: We've dealt with Input-Working space above; for Working Space-Output you've selected Colorsync so as discussed further above, it embeds your printer profile. That is normal behaviour (for this application).

Turning to Reply 93, based on what I've said above and further back, all that is behaving as it is designed to. If you are looking to have as little as possible managed in SilverFast, the settings are shown in the attached screen grab. 

Gotta to step out - hope this answers your queries - otherwise later will be greater.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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andrewrodney

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2018, 03:39:56 PM »

Reply #93, third image is a bug according to an email I just got from Jan.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2018, 04:50:18 PM »

Reply #93, third image is a bug according to an email I just got from Jan.

There is no third image in Reply 93. Perhaps you mean Reply 92. If so, what is the nature of the bug?

In that dialog you have Working Space-Output set to ColorSync. In that mode, for Output/Printer you can select <none> as you have there, or any one from a bunch of printer profiles. The bug may be that if you select <none>, the last profile loaded sticks beside "Profile to Embed", (the last previous printer profile used) which is something I mentioned yesterday. I agree it is a bug. But by unchecking "Embed ICC Profile", the effect of <none> is retained if that is what you want. Anyhow they should fix it, and likely will now that he has acknowledged it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 08:52:50 PM by Mark D Segal »
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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andrewrodney

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2018, 05:01:28 PM »

Shows 93 for me but maybe we are sorting differently? Anyway, three captures, 3rd one, Epson printer profile is shown as embedded but not selected anywhere else. Jan says it’s a bug. I also asked if you can replicate a similar printer profile on your end.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2018, 05:07:18 PM »

Shows 93 for me but maybe we are sorting differently? Anyway, three captures, 3rd one, Epson printer profile is shown as embedded but not selected anywhere else. Jan says it’s a bug. I also asked if you can replicate a similar printer profile on your end.

I don't sort - just keep the order presented, but OK, I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same screen grab and the same error.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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David Mantripp

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Re: Silverfast Advanced Targets ?
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2018, 08:54:17 AM »

Just wanted to say that you've got at least an audience of 1 for this discussion :-)

By the way, just to throw another spanner into the works, see what happens if you check "L* gradation" in Preferences ?  (I wish Lr had that option, btw).  Actually in my case I'm using that in Silverfast HDR, I just scan to "so-called RAW".

Still, it is encouraging that Lasersoft are actually engaging with the outside world. Hopefully it will eventually dawn on them that their "our way or the highway" attitude is doing them a lot more harm than good.
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