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Author Topic: The PR war  (Read 2494 times)

eronald

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2018, 08:50:32 AM »

You're right. I've seen salesmen in a reputable local telling that model x of brand a is the ultimate camera that money can buy and ten minutes later telling another customer that model y of brand b is the ultimate camera.

As far as I'm concerned, the Nikon D4 was the ultimate camera: I had so many issues with it that I decided never again to purchase an SLR as a new product. Any camera I buy now is used and preferably well-used and cheap.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 01:02:26 PM by eronald »
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Rob C

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2018, 02:49:47 PM »

As far as I'm concerned, the Nikon D4 was the ultimate camera: I had so many issues with it that I decided never again to purchase an SLR as a new product. Any camera I buy now is used and preferably well-used and cheap.

Edmund


I think of used equipment in terms of a second-hand car, which here, probably suggests it was a hire car, if only because the local folks don't seem affected by the same status associations with wheels that some other groupings do, and so keep their cars a long time, until they (the cars) are almost too old to pass the MOT. As I used to trade-in cars (at one period of my life) just for the pleasure of something better than the old one, which I bought new and ran for maybe up to three years or so, I was usually free of them before they went expensive. Post-retirement, that changed right around, and I keep them until they do get expensive, which since I run very low mileages now, means the body rots whilst the engine still runs like new.

I suspect that cameras are just as likely to be on the market as examples of somebody else's troubles which you, dear reader, may be about to buy. However, the same post-retirement options have allowed me to sample "pre-owned" Nikkors, all manual, and so far, luck has held. I can't imagine buying an af or stabilised lens used or, as the sales people prefer to put it, pre-owned.

Chris Kern

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2018, 04:22:28 PM »

I can't imagine buying an af or stabilised lens used or, as the sales people prefer to put it, pre-owned.

I've had an excellent experience with manufacturer-refurbished lenses.  I figure a refurbished lens has undergone a more thorough inspection than a new one that simply passed a routine factory quality-assurance check, and probably has been adjusted by an expert to be optimally within spec.  On the other hand, on a couple of occasions I've had to return a new lens to a retail seller after receiving a bad sample.

NancyP

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2018, 07:47:48 PM »

I resemble that statement! "keep their cars a long time, until they (the cars) are almost too old to pass the MOT". "Not easily fixable to pass the license test" is usually why I ditch a car - that, and for my oldest car (Saab 99, older vintage), the difficulty in sourcing parts. 19.5 and 17 years for my two previous cars, until they reached the junkyard / parts bin / crushed cube in the sky - the latest is just 4 years old, a baby.

I have had good experience with buying OEM refurbished lenses, and used lenses from the local camera stores - they have a short trial period, so one can go shoot some brick walls, flare tests, whatever, examine the results, and have the lens back to them in a day if it isn't suitable. Buy on Saturday, test on Sunday, if necessary return Monday. I have to say, I have had no need to return a used lens after its trial, from the bargain "shorty 40" to the Zeiss Distagon 21.
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hogloff

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 09:50:10 AM »


I think of used equipment in terms of a second-hand car, which here, probably suggests it was a hire car, if only because the local folks don't seem affected by the same status associations with wheels that some other groupings do, and so keep their cars a long time, until they (the cars) are almost too old to pass the MOT. As I used to trade-in cars (at one period of my life) just for the pleasure of something better than the old one, which I bought new and ran for maybe up to three years or so, I was usually free of them before they went expensive. Post-retirement, that changed right around, and I keep them until they do get expensive, which since I run very low mileages now, means the body rots whilst the engine still runs like new.

I suspect that cameras are just as likely to be on the market as examples of somebody else's troubles which you, dear reader, may be about to buy. However, the same post-retirement options have allowed me to sample "pre-owned" Nikkors, all manual, and so far, luck has held. I can't imagine buying an af or stabilised lens used or, as the sales people prefer to put it, pre-owned.

I've purchased the majority of my gear used and have had zero issues with it. Saved on average 40% from buying new. I have lenses that are 50 years old that function like new.

What assurance do you have your shiny new lens won't cough up a hair ball right after it's warranty has expired?
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NancyP

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2018, 10:48:13 AM »

No assurance at all. However, most issues should appear within warranty. I have bought new cameras, and about half of my non-vintage lenses are new, half old. Reasons for buying new lenses include - don't see the desired used lens on sale locally or refurbished from Canon!
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KLaban

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2018, 12:41:48 PM »

Over many years I've bought more used photographic equipment than new and over many years I've had no reason to regret my purchasing decisions.
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Rob C

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2018, 12:51:20 PM »

I've purchased the majority of my gear used and have had zero issues with it. Saved on average 40% from buying new. I have lenses that are 50 years old that function like new.

What assurance do you have your shiny new lens won't cough up a hair ball right after it's warranty has expired?


I don't have any such assurance; in fact it has been a pet peeve of mine that Nikon appears to have abandoned its former standards of QC and handed such responsibilities on to its customers who, unfortunately, have a harder task to perform than just throwing the faulty item back at the foreman.

No longer having a nearby source for photographic equipment anymore, having no desire to change brands, the best recourse I have is to use Grays of Westminster, a Nikon specialist that, so far, has never let me down. That means dealing by 'phone and e-mail, and I have no idea if their used stock is checked out by a Nikon subsidiary or not, or whether their own company has a skilled tech. to hand.

As I mentioned, I have bought several old lenses from them, all manual Nikkors, but I would not want to imagine that a straight, manual lens has as many possible failure points as one that has to perform af functions and perhaps stabilisation, too. Apart from that, the two af lenses I do own, 1.8/50mm G and a 2.8/180mm do not feel as smooth or as substantial as similar lenses I owned in the past.

But on a broader issue, as a pro, why on Earth would I have considered old stuff when new was going to be charged against tax, anyway? On top of that, the risk of being away somewhere, armed with somebody else's old junk, with no pro facilities available should shit happen, was a concept that never crossed my mind as being worth considering.

As I sometimes suggest, things often improve without getting one whit better, and that's where I think much of this new technology is leading us.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 12:58:37 PM by Rob C »
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Kirk_C

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2018, 02:39:26 PM »


That was my thinking.  Likely that store wasn't even a Nikon dealer.

If this was a Nikon Dealer wouldn't there were bright Yellow logos and Nikons on display ?

Here in the U.S. it's pretty hard to miss Nikon in-store marketing.
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chez

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2018, 04:25:21 PM »


I don't have any such assurance; in fact it has been a pet peeve of mine that Nikon appears to have abandoned its former standards of QC and handed such responsibilities on to its customers who, unfortunately, have a harder task to perform than just throwing the faulty item back at the foreman.

No longer having a nearby source for photographic equipment anymore, having no desire to change brands, the best recourse I have is to use Grays of Westminster, a Nikon specialist that, so far, has never let me down. That means dealing by 'phone and e-mail, and I have no idea if their used stock is checked out by a Nikon subsidiary or not, or whether their own company has a skilled tech. to hand.

As I mentioned, I have bought several old lenses from them, all manual Nikkors, but I would not want to imagine that a straight, manual lens has as many possible failure points as one that has to perform af functions and perhaps stabilisation, too. Apart from that, the two af lenses I do own, 1.8/50mm G and a 2.8/180mm do not feel as smooth or as substantial as similar lenses I owned in the past.

But on a broader issue, as a pro, why on Earth would I have considered old stuff when new was going to be charged against tax, anyway? On top of that, the risk of being away somewhere, armed with somebody else's old junk, with no pro facilities available should shit happen, was a concept that never crossed my mind as being worth considering.

As I sometimes suggest, things often improve without getting one whit better, and that's where I think much of this new technology is leading us.

Maybe leading you, but the quality of images being taken at high ISO in very dark conditions is truly amazing compared to what was possible just a few years ago. Eye AF tracking is revolutionizing, taking care of the dredgory of focusing on moving subjects leaving you more time to get that special moment shot.

Ones that donít get anything out of new tech are ones that donít embrace the technology and just get stuck in the good old days way of things.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2018, 04:42:45 PM »

Another piece of information that seem to indicate that among people who know their craft the reality today is that Nikonís old DSLRs are currently the clear leaders.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/04/16/most-of-the-photos-in-the-world-press-photo-2018-contest-were-taken-with-nikon-51-5-and-dslr-cameras-83-5.

Since the technology used in consumer cameras is derived from those, how do we explain the much better Canon results? Can they be explained without having to look into dodgy sales techniques bordering on FUD?

Cheers,
Bernard

armand

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2018, 08:06:44 PM »

Another piece of information that seem to indicate that among people who know their craft the reality today is that Nikonís old DSLRs are currently the clear leaders.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/04/16/most-of-the-photos-in-the-world-press-photo-2018-contest-were-taken-with-nikon-51-5-and-dslr-cameras-83-5.

Since the technology used in consumer cameras is derived from those, how do we explain the much better Canon results? Can they be explained without having to look into dodgy sales techniques bordering on FUD?

I find it quite surprising/ impressive that 3 of those shots were taken with Fuji X100S cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2018, 08:38:20 PM »

Another piece of information that seem to indicate that among people who know their craft the reality today is that Nikonís old DSLRs are currently the clear leaders.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/04/16/most-of-the-photos-in-the-world-press-photo-2018-contest-were-taken-with-nikon-51-5-and-dslr-cameras-83-5.

Since the technology used in consumer cameras is derived from those, how do we explain the much better Canon results? Can they be explained without having to look into dodgy sales techniques bordering on FUD?

Cheers,
Bernard

And yet their sales are sinking...hmmm

Just goes to show you need more than a pretty picture to win.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2018, 08:48:48 PM »

...how do we explain the much better Canon results? Can they be explained without having to look into dodgy sales techniques bordering on FUD?

Yes, all those naive pros, falling victim of the Canon FUD ;)





BernardLanguillier

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2018, 09:01:10 PM »

No those are pros working for agencies with historical contracts with Canon and not enough cash flow to buy best in class gear. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2018, 09:04:01 PM »

And yet their sales are sinking...hmmm

Just goes to show you need more than a pretty picture to win.

Exactly my point indeed.

Marketing and sales tactics are indeed important and the commercial difficulties of Nikon compared ti Canon should be a study case in Japanís MBA courses.

Cheers,
Bernard

Rob C

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2018, 04:46:40 AM »

Maybe leading you, but the quality of images being taken at high ISO in very dark conditions is truly amazing compared to what was possible just a few years ago. Eye AF tracking is revolutionizing, taking care of the dredgory of focusing on moving subjects leaving you more time to get that special moment shot.

Ones that donít get anything out of new tech are ones that donít embrace the technology and just get stuck in the good old days way of things.

So, you are suggesting that I must change my interests and techniques simply to comply with new technology? Let me assure you that I led a very useful career without af or digital, doing things then, that I wanted to do, that many if not most photographers today, armed with their Łber expensive digital nursemaids toys will never ever get the opportunity to do. I need no lectures from you about catching that "special moment" shot. Perhaps you could stick a copy of your message onto HC-B's grave, too.

Talk about putting the cart in front of the poor old horse!

Af has brought one positive into my life: it helps my old eyes. Against that, the fact that dslr screens are incredibly poor compared with those of film cameras of similar status up the totem pole. The fact that my digital Nikons do not incorporate a split-image screen is incredibly annoying, because with it, I would not, today, need af at all. I know this for a fact because I still own a never-used-again film camera: an F3. I sometimes pull it out of retirement, stick a lens into it and just gaze with sadness through its pentaprism... like youth, a quality gone for ever.

Mike D. B.

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2018, 05:32:40 AM »

... The fact that my digital Nikons do not incorporate a split-image screen is incredibly annoying, because with it, I would not, today, need af at all. ...
Do any current bodies offer a split-image focus screen?  The lack this is one reason I quit using (Leica and Zeiss) manual focus lenses with my former Canon bodies.  I wasn't convinced using third party focus screens either.  Now I use Fujifilm cameras and am mostly pleased.  I still miss a split-image screen though, but love the aperture ring.

Rob C

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2018, 07:10:49 AM »

Do any current bodies offer a split-image focus screen?  The lack this is one reason I quit using (Leica and Zeiss) manual focus lenses with my former Canon bodies.  I wasn't convinced using third party focus screens either.  Now I use Fujifilm cameras and am mostly pleased.  I still miss a split-image screen though, but love the aperture ring.


I don't think that they do; I think it has something to do with a different type of screen surface being better for af systems. It would be the one factor that, were it offered, would make me think of upgrading one of my current bodies.

Rob

eronald

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Re: The PR war
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2018, 07:25:11 AM »


I don't think that they do; I think it has something to do with a different type of screen surface being better for af systems. It would be the one factor that, were it offered, would make me think of upgrading one of my current bodies.

Rob

SLR AF systems don't see the focus screen, but much light is abducted by passing THROUGH  the main mirror into a cavity in the bottom of the camera where it is tortured and expires.

Edmund
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