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Author Topic: Is it time for Red Flag laws?  (Read 36976 times)

Two23

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2018, 10:46:43 pm »

When I was a kid, living rural, every kid I knew had a rifle of some sort, and most had hand guns.  Every pick up truck in town had a rifle rack in the back window, usually parked in town, unlocked.

Yet, there wasn’t the problem(s) we see today.

Makes me wonder what else has changed to produce our current culture.



Very clearly the difference is now there too often is no dad in the home, and a single woman is trying to control an out of control/troubled teenage boy.  Doesn't work out well.


Kent in SD
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texshooter

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2018, 11:12:25 pm »

Single mothers can be tough too.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 12:38:21 am by texshooter »
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Rand47

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2018, 11:19:50 pm »


Very clearly the difference is now there too often is no dad in the home, and a single woman is trying to control an out of control/troubled teenage boy.  Doesn't work out well.


Kent in SD

I sense that is “too easy” a response.  It is a symptom, not a root cause.  And it is only one of many societal symptoms of a root cause.

More than that, if Richard Dawkins statement in his quote above is actually true, then it really doesn’t matter, does it?  Just the DNA dance. 

Rand
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 11:23:07 pm by Rand47 »
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Two23

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2018, 11:39:36 pm »

I sense that is “too easy” a response.  It is a symptom, not a root cause.  And it is only one of many societal symptoms of a root cause.



There may be overall greater factors, but those are in turn making it acceptable for men to not take responsibility for raising children.  The statistics are pretty clear.


Kent in SD
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2018, 12:55:26 am »

This is an interesting topic.

From the OP's link Mckenzie was glad they took his guns away after acting weird in a restaurant. I didn't realize those who exhibit any symptom of PTSD aren't aware at the time they're exhibiting this behavior. That's the scary part IMO mainly because he had his firearm on him at time.

I do have to wonder if this type of behavioral analysis and/or reporting will be applied to one's web activity. Maybe someone has their guns taken away for stalking another person online. But that does get into a slippery slope of free speech rights.

How is strange behavior defined online to the extent one's guns are taken away?
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2018, 09:14:14 am »

People have to prove minimum competence before they're allowed to drive a car.

just a small nit to pick, but no one has to prove any competence before being allowed to drive a car in the US.  It is only if one wishes to drive a car on a public road where you need a license and the resulting knowledge and skill test.  If you have a big farm and you want your 5 year old to drive on the farm, there is nothing intrinsically illegal about that.

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pegelli

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 12:00:02 pm »

It is only if one wishes to drive a car on a public road where you need a license and the resulting knowledge and skill test.  If you have a big farm and you want your 5 year old to drive on the farm, there is nothing intrinsically illegal about that.
I could live with the same exception for guns (assuming the bullets stay within the perimeter of your own premises as well).
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Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2018, 12:46:46 pm »

Very clearly the difference is now there too often is no dad in the home, and a single woman is trying to control an out of control/troubled teenage boy.  Doesn't work out well.

Do you believe it is more important that a teenage boy follows the rules, or follows his own conscience? Do you believe it is more important that a teenage boy should respect his elders, or think for himself? Are obedience and respect for authority are the most important values boys should learn from their parents?
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degrub

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2018, 01:37:27 pm »

Do no harm to others is a starting point. Comprehending the potential consequences of actions before undertaking is a step to mature, responsible, behavior.
The dialectics listed are normal tensions growing up. They have to be managed with a set of rules as a start and then "shades of grey" can be navigated over time and with demonstrated growth.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2018, 03:30:12 pm »

Do you believe it is more important that a teenage boy follows the rules, or follows his own conscience? Do you believe it is more important that a teenage boy should respect his elders, or think for himself? Are obedience and respect for authority are the most important values boys should learn from their parents?

What "following own conscience" and "thinking for himself" can lead to, we've already seen in many school shootings.

The area of brain responsible for risk analysis does not fully develop until early 20s (or so I was told by medical professionals), so there is certainly a role for parental and paternal guidance.

I don't think that anyone is claiming that "obedience and respect for authority" is the most important value, but important it is. As anything else in life, it is always a matter of balance.

Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2018, 08:18:32 pm »

I don't think that anyone is claiming that "obedience and respect for authority" is the most important value, but important it is. As anything else in life, it is always a matter of balance.

For many decades, social psychology has empirically demonstrated that a statistically significant percentage of the American population argue that it is the most important child rearing value. Questions like this (there are several) reveal this value: "Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: obedience or self-reliance?"

Attitudes toward child rearing say a lot about individual differences in social attitudes and perspectives of how society should operate, totally irrespective whether the adult being asked is a parent or not.

Given that 'Kent in SD' has repeatedly referred to his idea about child rearing and its effect on society, it seems to be very important value to him. Hence my question.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2018, 08:46:57 pm »

For many decades, social psychology has empirically demonstrated that a statistically significant percentage of the American population argue that it is the most important child rearing value. Questions like this (there are several) reveal this value: "Please tell me which one you think is more important for a child to have: obedience or self-reliance?"

Attitudes toward child rearing say a lot about individual differences in social attitudes and perspectives of how society should operate, totally irrespective whether the adult being asked is a parent or not.

Given that 'Kent in SD' has repeatedly referred to his idea about child rearing and its effect on society, it seems to be very important value to him. Hence my question.

I will take issue with almost every aspect of what you said above.

- What is "a statistically significant percentage"? 10%? 25%? 33%? 51%?
- Binary questions like that force a black or white answer that in reality would be much more nuanced, as both are important and can co-exist simultaneously
- child age plays a role in answering such a question: the older a child gets, the balance between obedience and self-reliance would change toward self-reliance

"Kent is SD" referred to paternal presence in the life of a child, boys in particular, not directly to "obedience" or "authority." I hope that you are not arguing that paternal presence is not important in growing up?

What type of "authority" you are referring to? Biological (i.e., by the virtue of being a father) or earned authority? By earned authority, I mean child's respect for his/her father for what he is doing for them, sacrifices he has made, ethical examples he represents, being a positive role model, etc. Having a relationship with such an authority is a completely different case than authority based on "I am your father, you must obey!"

You seem to want to degrade and reduce the concept of authority to "authoritarian" sociological and theoretical concepts.

I believe "Kent is SD," as well as myself, represent dads with earned authority. My daughter listens to me not because I raised her to be obedient, but because she trusts my advice and experience, or, in other words, my "authority."



Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2018, 09:18:26 pm »

Slobodan, if you're really interested I can refer you to some of the relevant social psychology literature. Given research findings are the result of many decades of academic research (going back to the 1950s), it's extensive.

You are correct to argue that reducing complex social phenomena to one personality construct is dangerous. I'm not arguing that, and the literature I draw on does not do that either. In fact the literature these days does exactly the opposite: it looks at the interplay of several constructs in a variety of contexts. Moreover, studies take a variety of forms, including "yes/no", and scales, such as from 1 to 7 (strongly disagree to strongly agree).

And FWIW, I see no evidence that leads me assume that "Kent in SD" has the same child raising values as you. I think it quite possible that with respect to child raising values, you and he may have different values. Whatever they are, chances are  "Kent in SD" feels strongly about them, as do you it seems. That much you have in common at least.



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Two23

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2018, 09:19:18 pm »


What type of "authority" you are referring to? Biological (i.e., by the virtue of being a father) or earned authority?



When my youngest son (the quiet type!) went into a moody period when he was 14, he began to get rebellious & aggressive.  My wife was unable to deal with it and delegated that to me.  One afternoon my kid defiantly asked, "What would you do if I hit you?"  That would be unwise of him, of course, but rather than say/do something that would escalate tension, I quickly crafted a reply to diffuse it.  After thinking for a moment or two, I calmly replied, "I'd eat you."  The kid was somewhat sure I was joking, but at the same time he'd grown up seeing countless large animals (deer, antelope, elk) dead in the back of my pickup truck.  The animals, which were the same size as him, were indeed eaten.  He wasn't completely sure it was an idle threat. ;D   Deciding to not chance it, he quickly calmed down.


Kent in SD
 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 09:23:38 pm by Two23 »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2018, 09:31:19 pm »

Slobodan, if you're really interested I can refer you to some of the relevant social psychology literature...

I spent 2-3 years in my high school having 5 (!) classes in sociology a week (my choice, not forced), something equivalent to AP classes in America. I think I had enough sociology for the rest of my life :)

But I appreciate the offer.

Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2018, 09:42:23 pm »

I spent 2-3 years in my high school having 5 (!) classes in sociology a week (my choice, not forced), something equivalent to AP classes in America. I think I had enough sociology for the rest of my life :)

But I appreciate the offer.

Social psychology and sociology are like two totally different worlds in most academic communities in the U.S, unfortunately. Social psychology and anthropology have some overlap in the sense that some scholars read each other's work in sufficient volume to generate something called psychological anthropology. And sometimes scholars such as those that specialize in race do cross back and forth quite freely between social psychology, sociology, and cultural anthropology, and even biological anthropology, but it's not that common.  The prof I studied social psychology under at the University of Minnesota is unusual in that he is in both social psychology and political science. Again, not that common.

That's the sad reality of contemporary academic life. Generally way too compartmentalized. Individual scholars can do their best to do interdisciplinary work, but the institutional structures can make it very difficult for them to do so.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2018, 11:20:43 pm »

People have to prove minimum competence before they're allowed to drive a car. Why should gun ownership not be subject to some scrutiny? It is the case in much of the rest of the world, and they (we) seem to get along just fine. Here in Canada, anyone who wants to hunt can arrange to purchase a weapon after a process that's akin to passing a driver's test. Any farmer who needs a varmint rifle can get one (in fact, most of them already do). 


Bearing arms is protected by the American Constitution.  There is no Constitutional protection to drive a car or hunt.  Each State makes up its hunting and driving license rules as it sees fit.  Often, the anti-gun argument is that many weapon types are not useful for hunting.    But that argument is a non-sequitur because the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with hunting.  It gives you the right to be armed to defend yourself personally and to use your arms against a tyrannical government.  When dictators take over their countries, they don't confiscate guns to prevent people from hunting.  They do it to protect themselves from their own people.  That's what the 2nd Amendment is all about.

Alan Klein

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2018, 11:36:26 pm »

The breakdown of the family structure do to divorce and out-of-wedlock births have contributed to more violence, drugs,  and failure in school education.  The loss of the values we place on religious and moral comportment has made it OK to do things that in the past we thought twice before doing.  Humans have never been perfect.  They are only less so now as we are losing our way.   

RSL

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2018, 08:26:39 am »

It's interesting that murders by knife in London now exceed murders by gun in New York. Maybe England needs to confiscate all knives. You'll be able simply to chew what you want off the leg of lamb. Nasty how those knives go out on the street and stab people.
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DP

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2018, 09:07:17 am »

It's interesting that murders by knife in London now exceed murders by gun in New York. Maybe England needs to confiscate all knives. You'll be able simply to chew what you want off the leg of lamb. Nasty how those knives go out on the street and stab people.

one month one city... compare London for many month and with say 3 times less populated Chicago ?
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