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Author Topic: Can digital cameras be designed to accept  (Read 5711 times)

Pete JF

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« on: September 29, 2006, 07:19:58 pm »

Is this possible? this is follow up on my question in the leica M8 preview thread.

Can they do this? design these pro (all companies) bodies with enough flexibility inside to be able to accept newer sensors as the technology changes?


wondering
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Graeme Nattress

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2006, 07:48:37 pm »

Because they want to sell you a whole new camera, not just a sensor. Also, as pixel densities increase, you need more horse power elsewhere, and larger buffers to deal with the bigger images.

That said, we're putting the ability to have upgradable sensors into the www.red.com camera, so it is possible.

Graeme
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Pete JF

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2006, 10:19:32 pm »

Graeme,

Yeah, Im aware of the plan in this industry to snag as much of our money as is possible before we come to our senses in some way. I've been to your site in the past and never quite knew what to make of things. I believe the previous versions of the site were set up as teasers? This is a motion camera of course? It all looks very interesting.

I just wish I could settle into a camera and keep the damn thing like I've kept, and used, all my view camera, medium format and 35mm equipment over the years. There is an incredibly baited market out here and the companies have a nicely metered plan to keep everyone wanting and needing the next thing. fer sure. It would be nice if things would settle down a bit and the engineers would start working on ways to make money off of us  based on creating products that can grow and adapt to the technology for a few extra years...I don't think it'd be to damn difficult to build a box that would contain the ability to swap out the sensors. the processors, whatever else it takes....if you design that way then the designs of thse components can follow those sepcs, in a sense.

 All the rest of the stuff onboard is just a bunch of useless junk for most professionals. Give me mirror lock up, a decent metering system, decent write times, a good sensor, some decent white balance, raw, and maybe a couple of other things...hot shoe...and I'd be thrilled.

I see a few cameras coming out that look compelling...the Sigma rangefinder looks kind of interesting, the M8 looks great except Id hate to just trash a perfectly well manufactured leica body because they suddenly got rid of noise in images. I've seen others wondering about this very same type of crap before. Maybe we should have big march and a sit in at canon and nikon headquarters, pass out some beer and make some demands.

(ramble)


Are you guys working on a still camera?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 10:21:28 pm by Pete JF »
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DiaAzul

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2006, 04:24:08 am »

Does  a medium format camera answer your question? The lens, body and back (with sensor) are all separate items that can be interchanged/upgraded as required.

For 35mm cameras the cost of a back would be as expensive as producing the entire body, so probably not worth the cost of making the sensor interchangeable - in this case it is as, or more economic, to replace the whole unit rather than individual parts.
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David Plummer    http://photo.tanzo.org/

Anon E. Mouse

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 04:51:34 am »

It would cost more and be more limiting than designing a new camera.
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Pete JF

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 12:42:06 pm »

Dia,

No, Im much more interested in the equivalent of a street camera. Im very happy shooting medium format and large format film and scanning on my Imacon, very nice.

Anon,

Im not to sure about that. I just read in another thread that HP spent around 3 billion??? on designing new printer technology. I dont know if it's true but if it is it represents, in my opinion, an apropriate attitude towards how the digital thing should be approached. It's at the point where we should stop trying to retrofit the traditionally styled bodies and start thinking about this from the ground up...does this make sense? the guy up there with "red" camera seems to understand. Judging from what I've read on forums all over the place, my feeling about this is shared by many people.

 I realize that these companies are trying to shave dollars and are relying traditional slr designs to save money...but why not start re-thinking the design of the street camera? Why couldn't it be more of a modular approach like many medium format cams? When I try to wrap my brain around buying a hand made camera like the M8, I just can't get past the reality of the fact that Im buying a top end camera that will be probably be regarded as a toy in the next few years. It's a waste and a joke IMO. It's the same with all of these slr types as well.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2006, 12:43:48 pm by Pete JF »
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Seth Honeyman

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2006, 09:18:36 pm »

Didn't Kodak do just that with their 14N several years ago?  The original sensor was panned for a number of faults and Kodak swapped out the sensor for a not too exorbitant fee.  That seems to show that it can be done, although it has hardly started a trend.
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MarkKay

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2006, 10:05:40 pm »

There are things I dont understand.

1) The Hassy web site states you can upgrade existing H1 and H2 systems to the H3.  Does this mean you convert your H1/H2 to a camera that cannot accept a 3rd party back?

2)  I thought the H3 had a different physical structure so that it could accept the 28mm?
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Graeme Nattress

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2006, 10:44:32 pm »

Quote
Graeme,
Are you guys working on a still camera?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78348\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, it's a 12mp motion camera. But the technology is very much DSLR style in that it's a single chip, not 3, and we're shooting, for the most part, RAW, not video.

Graeme
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Quentin

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2006, 05:47:34 am »

Quote
Didn't Kodak do just that with their 14N several years ago?  The original sensor was panned for a number of faults and Kodak swapped out the sensor for a not too exorbitant fee.  That seems to show that it can be done, although it has hardly started a trend.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, and I had the upgrade done on my 14n, so it became a 14nx, identical to the SLR/n save power management.  However, it was not a "planned" upgrade, more an essential fix for the serious issues with the original sensor - an act of desperation, if you like.  If you designed a camera from he outset to have an upgradeable sensor, you'd probably want a more efficient design.  In fact, why not eventually have hot-swappable sensors for different tasks?

Quentin
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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrato

Pete JF

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2006, 12:32:27 pm »

It's a matter of these companies making the engineering leap and trying to show some creativity in terms of designing cameras that don't need to be tossed every few years...upgradeable. Maybe im being to green, or, perhaps I have unrealistic, overly idealistic sensibilties. I wonder though, do any of the big boys feel the same way about this issue? speak up guys...
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Steve Kerman

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2006, 03:53:40 pm »

Understand, you're not talking about just upgrading the sensor.  You have to upgrade the sensor, the processing logic, the memories, possibly the battery, and probably the display.  About all you have left is some mechanical parts--the lens mount, mirror, shutter, and the viewfinder system--about $1000 of the retail cost of a professional-level "35mm" DSLR.  That's not much to save out of an $8,000 camera.  The cost of all the handwork to perform the upgrade would likely be more than the mechanical parts you save, not to mention the warranty problems because a hand upgrade is likely much less consistent than a new product built on a production line.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 03:54:11 pm by Steve Kerman »
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DiaAzul

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2006, 06:39:43 pm »

Quote
The cost of all the handwork to perform the upgrade would likely be more than the mechanical parts you save, not to mention the warranty problems because a hand upgrade is likely much less consistent than a new product built on a production line.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78969\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Therein lies the problem - the labour costs to do the change. Not just the physical work of swapping out the sensor, but the supply chain and logisitcs to stock and supply individual sensors and have sufficient capability within the camera to provide enough processing horsepower for the maximum sized sensor just doesn't make economic sense. If there was to be a street camera with swapable sensor it would probably cost GBP10,000+ and everyone would complain that it is too expensive and why cannot be the same cost as a 400D.

The most comparable example to a camera is probably a motor car - why is it not possible to swap out the engine in a motor car so that you can have a 3 litre sequential turbo-charged rocket for fun days and a 1.9 litre diesel engine for the daily commute? Same issue at stake here as for the camera - technically it is possible, but the economics of what people are ACTUALLY willing to pay compared with what people think others will pay for is very different. Hence, the reason that motor and camera manufacturers provide all inclusive packages which you upgrade every couple of years.

If you can demonstrate the niche market for swapable sensors is sufficiently attractive for the camera manufacturers (and that isn't two posts in a forum) then you may get some attention - but this really is a niche and not a mainstream requirement.
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David Plummer    http://photo.tanzo.org/

victoraberdeen

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2006, 10:33:41 pm »

Roll out the Lego camera, choose your lens mount, sensor and even the user interface. Sounds like mass customization. What is needed is a smart company who sees how to make money with such a custom camera. It won't be one of the current big players as they have too much committed to the current product portfolio to change, however one of the view camera makers could apply the know how to a street camera. Things are also not always what they appear, the worlds largest tire manufacturer is Lego!

Interesting times :)

Victor
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Pete JF

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Can digital cameras be designed to accept
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2006, 12:28:09 am »

I look at it like this, and, as another poster on this thread suggested..Large format d back, Medium format d back, small format  d back. What's different? basically size and shape. That is pretty much it. Costs should still be coming down, that is, unless these companies have been meeting for drinks and collectively holding the line on price drops. We have high quality dslr's below the 1K  mark at this point. Sure, re-tooling and re-thinking costs money.

DiaAzul,

There is an old saying that i cant remember. It goes like this..If the great thinkers / doers had listened to the all the guys at their dinner parties, telling them they were nuts for even thinking of that...we'd still be eating on the floor and tossing our bones in the corner. For that matter, we might still be in the darkroom sniiffing fixer, blasting the music and dancing while we agitate.(which i still am from time to time).

What Im trying to say to you is this...please dont insult my intelligence with parenthetical remarks such as "and that isn't two posts in a forum". I am well aware of the complexity of the industrial process and the corporate thought process that is in place at the moment. People, like one of the posters above, Graeme Nattress, and others who have made posts that resemble my remarks, are out there.

Mr Nattress is involved in thinking outside of the box, that takes a certain amount of guts. Im sure he has experienced many rolls of the eyes as he has proceeded down his road. Adverse thought is important in this type of process, but, it doesn't need to be reinforced by condescending remarks.

I and perhaps, we, are talking about some sort of modular standard that a given company could realize and build flexibility into, anticipating future possibilties and parameters. It does not seem all that ridiculous to me.

What the hell, look at the size of some of these digicams...they are tiny...really tiny. And many of them produce amazing images for their size. When I look at those things and think about your suggestion that the sensor is not the only issue here...it makes me even more sure that this is possible and realistic. In fact, we are at a point where most knowledgeable folks are realizing that we dont need much more in the way of file size. processing power should naturally take a lurch at some point.

and no, Im not really talking about scads of folks sending their cameras in for sensor replacement. Im sure that there is some genius out there that could come up with an efficient system for upgrading a product line based on a well thought out ten or fifteen year plan for tech improvements based on a set of standards and pin configurations or some such. After all, lots of folks have been through sticking high tech q-tips and various gadgets into their cameras to try to clean their sensors...a user replaced module is not all that far fetched given that clumsy, sort of stone aged process. A simple back could do the trick with processors built into the camera. As I said before, two points: Pixel counts are beginning to max out to the point where we dont need bigger files for a given use, it should make sense that processing power should take a rest as well, and, prices should keep coming down.

I know one thing for sure and that is, if Leica could produce a camera that would truly live in the spirit of the family of durable, reliable cameras that they are known for, something that wouldn't be obsolete in a couple of years...which the M8 will be, they would sell a hell of lot more cameras. Same goes for the mentality of the new Hasselblad line because backwards and lateral compatability builds loyalty and sells products.  


Painfully idealistic? naive? Fine, I'll accept that and wear that badge while i'm making sculptures from my mastadon bones.

Lego? Maybe I should trade in the twenty or so massive lego space stations my son has built for a new set of whitewall radials? He doesn't use them anymore because girls have taken over his brain...I cannot bring myself to throw them out, they are fairly rad, awesome even.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 12:36:19 am by Pete JF »
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