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Author Topic: Children and Guns - Photojournalism  (Read 22897 times)

degrub

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2018, 06:30:33 pm »


Probably not, but it would have been a lot worse if he had parked a propane truck along the curb there and detonated it with explosives.


Kent in SD

Actually, probably not. Immediate ignition would have been a fireball. Sure some fatalities in the immediate vicinity from the flash fire and more from the fireball radiation. He would have had to rupture a connection on it or punch a hole in the side, let the cryo LPG flow and form a large pancake cloud and then light it off.  Something similar happened to a LPG tanker in France one year. They overfilled it and thermal expansion from solar heating ripped it apart just as it was passing a campground a few meters below. Needless to say everything in the campground burned.
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Schewe

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2018, 06:50:51 pm »

This week's The New Yorker has an interesting photojournalism article that features children with their guns:  https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/26/the-gun-owners-of-the-parkland-generation

I found this interesting from the article: (emphases mine)

Quote
With gun-advocacy groups investing heavily in youth recruitment and manufacturers catering to an emerging children’s market, the shooting sports are gaining in popularity. (Before Nikolas Cruz was expelled from Stoneman Douglas, he was a member of a varsity riflery team that benefitted from a ten-thousand-dollar grant from the National Rifle Association.)

So, Cruz benefited from a grant from the NRA...

Hum...

I don't have a problem with the 2nd amendment (although it's not what the NRA likes to think it is) but I do have a problem with the following people who have guns; crazies, drunks, addicts, domestic abusers, criminals and anybody else who represents a danger to society. Figure out a way that those people won't have guns and I'm ok with regular people who may like to hunt or shoot for recreation having guns as long as they are well trained an licensed and have passed a background check. However, high capacity mags and bump stocks and "assault rifles" should only be in the hands of the military and police...it really sucks when the police are outgunned by the criminals.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2018, 06:52:10 pm »

Please people! Timothy McVeigh called... wants his truck back.

John Camp

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2018, 07:08:24 pm »

I actually know a lot about guns. I've had them around since I was a kid, I was in the military, I belong to a rifle range, was a long-time hunter (though I quit a few years ago.) With a few exceptions, most gun-range sports (target shooting) can be practiced with low-energy, low-rate-of-fire weapons. The exceptions would mostly be combat simulations. But why protect those sports in which the very purpose is to simulate killing others?

Some gun sports, like hunting, require heavier weapons -- but not high rate-of-fire weapons. It's a hunting truism (and I was a hunter for decades) that if you have to fire more than twice, you're almost certainly going to miss the target that you missed the first two times, and worse, you've probably shooting in haste, which is when you hit unintended targets, like other hunters. There are exceptions, of course, but most ethical hunters don't take multiple shots at a single target.

But here is a "constitutionalist" argument about guns -- the framers of the constitution didn't care about shooting sports. The reasons the people should be armed was for the very reason that they might be necessary to create an effective militia, whose purpose would be to kill people. In other words,what the framers were really protecting was the 18th-Century assault rifle.

But that's not all they did -- they also gave the government to regulate the militia. The Second Amendment reads, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Therefore, the federal government has the full right to regulate their militia. If I were king of the US, I would say that the potential militia man must arm himself with a .308 bolt-action rifle, and furthermore, must report for a month of physical training each year: essentially, a month of Marine Corp physical training under the eye of Marine drill instructors. That should thin the militia herd considerably.

As far as the photos were concerned, I think they deliberately cast a lot of the photos with that kind of here-but-crazy look that Arbus specialized in. I started shooting when I was a kid, on an Iowa acreage, under close supervision of my father and an uncle. Do you see any adult supervisors in those photos? I think if you did, they would be much less unsettling. It's the small-child with big-gun vibe that makes you nervous.
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Farmer

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2018, 07:13:44 pm »

But the main point, and you made it, is that in those days most people had guns but none of the crap that's going on now happened. I think it partly was because people knew that other people had guns in their homes, and schools weren't gun-free zones. Plenty of principals had weapons secured in their offices. But more importantly the whole moral environment was different.

I think you're missing the biggest component.  Population.  The US had only 40% of the current population in 1943 and it was far less urbanised.  Not only has the population more than doubled, in the cities and urban areas that's much higher.  Also, about 1/3 guns per person back then compared to more then 1/1 as there is now.  Those two combinations, I would suggest, have a significant impact on the issue.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2018, 07:18:41 pm »

Nice said, John.
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Phil Brown

OmerV

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2018, 07:44:34 pm »

As far as the photos were concerned, I think they deliberately cast a lot of the photos with that kind of here-but-crazy look that Arbus specialized in. I started shooting when I was a kid, on an Iowa acreage, under close supervision of my father and an uncle. Do you see any adult supervisors in those photos? I think if you did, they would be much less unsettling. It's the small-child with big-gun vibe that makes you nervous.
Interesting. I don’t see that at all, though some of the boys may be posturing a bit. Still, it is clear from the text that the parents were concerned about how the photographer might present their children. To me, the kids seem innocuous and naive just as they should be. Also, the kids seem more like proxies of the unseen adults that must surely be just out of sight of the camera.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2018, 08:00:19 pm »


How about a minivan with a propane tank inside it, of the sort you see in the yards at many farmhouses?  Or, a propane truck repainted and disguised to look like a septic tank cleaning truck?


Kent in SD
both those scenarios would be a violation of DOT regulations.  Those who sell propane have to keep extensive records and would not sell this kinds of amounts to someone with a mobile tank or one that was not labeled appropriately.  Even large amounts of nitrogen fertilizer are controlled these days.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2018, 08:02:24 pm »

Please people! Timothy McVeigh called... wants his truck back.
now that would be a miracle!!
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degrub

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2018, 08:53:54 pm »

both those scenarios would be a violation of DOT regulations.  Those who sell propane have to keep extensive records and would not sell this kinds of amounts to someone with a mobile tank or one that was not labeled appropriately.  Even large amounts of nitrogen fertilizer are controlled these days.

irrespective of DOT, there is not the energy density or specific impulse in propane (or any other ordinary liquid hydrocarbon) that would generate  significant blast. That's why some have used ammonium nitrate/hydrocarbon mix for that purpose.

And McVeigh didn't give a rats about DOT.
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Rob C

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2018, 05:41:44 am »

I think I may have discovered a reason why some young Americans have problems interacting with the opposite sex, and find themselves embroiled in accusations of rape and other politically incorrect actions (and if anything is incorrect, it must be rape).

Can you imagine dating that girl with the three-weapon superiority over you? Can you imagine the fear if you suddenly find yorself not in love as you'd imagined yourself to be? How do you react? Do you tell her, and risk being shot in three different ways whilst she's chasing you across a field or down a road? Think of it: seventeen years old, all those hormones (and pride and self-esteem questions) running riot, and three different ways of breaking your balls as well as the rest of you. Wow! No wonder shrinks make a lot of money.

They say Ferraris and Lambos are but penis extensions; what, for a girl, is a multi-shot, military-grade gun?

Rob

LesPalenik

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2018, 06:24:56 am »

800,000 people took part in the Washington March for Lives which trumps the Trump's inauguration crowd size.
And that's not counting the participants in other US cities and other countries in the March For Lives solidarity demonstrations.
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RSL

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2018, 07:26:34 am »

And what, exactly, is the "march's" solution to the problem? Oh, and the marchers left all their trash behind. That doesn't seem like a solution.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 07:30:11 am by RSL »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2018, 07:54:22 am »

And what, exactly, is the "march's" solution to the problem?

Mobilization of voters for the upcoming elections?

Cheers,
Bart
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2018, 08:03:42 am »

The right to bear arms is a funny thing. When back in the 1960s, the Black Panthers called themselves a militia and turned up carrying weapons, nobody like it much.

There is an interesting discussion of the NRA and its political lobbying efforts on this Radiolab podcast. I suspect that not many people know the history. http://www.radiolab.org/story/radiolab-presents-more-perfect-gun-show/.

It's too bad that the CDC is prevented from doing research on gun violence. It would be interesting to test the idea that people successfully use them in self-defence. You would think (hope) that proponents would welcome the opportunity.
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OmerV

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2018, 08:10:17 am »

Mobilization of voters for the upcoming elections?

Cheers,
Bart

Yes.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2018, 08:23:17 am »


It's too bad that the CDC is prevented from doing research on gun violence. It would be interesting to test the idea that people successfully use them in self-defence. You would think (hope) that proponents would welcome the opportunity.
The recently passed budget legislation removed the prohibition against the CDC carrying out research on gun violence.  Whether they have funds to do so is an open question.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2018, 08:33:03 am »

They certainly do.  The one preferred by the military can punch a hole through a car's engine.  One of my friend's has one and shoots prairie dogs with it, of all things.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/759446278

Kent in SD
I did not do a comprehensive look up of all the listed sniper rifles, but the 12 I did look up here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sniper_rifles are all bolt action.  they may have detachable magazines but they require the shooter to manually chamber a new round after firing.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2018, 08:35:08 am »

It's too bad that the CDC is prevented from doing research on gun violence. It would be interesting to test the idea that people successfully use them in self-defence. You would think (hope) that proponents would welcome the opportunity.

There may be a reason why research on gun-violence is avoided. And then there is this food for thought:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/03/during-nra-conventions-gun-injuries-drop-20-nationwide-63-in-hosting-state/

A bit hard to capture in an image, so maybe too much off topic, although better than dead kids.

Cheers,
Bart
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RSL

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Re: Children and Guns - Photojournalism
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2018, 08:53:30 am »

To get back to the original post, I suspect the New Yorker gathered these pictures hoping to panic people who are ignorant about firearms. I also suspect whoever made the pictures didn't know anything about the subject because, for the most part, the kids are handling the guns correctly. I'd bark at a couple if I were training them, but all in all they're doing fine.

Bart had the right answer. The intention was to mobilize people for the upcoming elections. The thing has little to do with guns and everything to do with politics, which always is the case when we hear about marches for this or that political position.

Maybe these people just don't get it. I'd be willing to bet that the past week brought a huge jump in firearms purchases. The point is that this kind of public political demonstration isn't solving anything. People aren't going to give up their guns. As far as the idea of laws solving the problem we have years and years of demonstrations of the absurdity of that idea in Chicago, which for decades has had very restrictive gun laws and extremely high murder rates with guns.

Legislation isn't going to solve the problem. A return to the kind of morality we had when I was a high-school gun-slinger would solve it, but we're not going to return to that kind of morality as long as we have Hollywood showing kids that murder with guns is a game.
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