Perplexing Printing Problem with Epson 3800 and new Mac

[Simplicity]

I have an Epson 3800 which I have been printing on for years with very consistent results. The computer I have been using has been a 2009 imac. I got a 2017 imac, and I am now unable to get my prints to come out the same using that computer. When I open up the Photoshop file, the image looks almost the same as on my 2009 imac (sure, a little better given the 4k Retina). But when I go to print it, the preview image looks weak, and this is pretty much how it ends up printing! I am using the same settings as best I can (the Epson driver for the 2009 imac is slightly different from the 2017)-- Epson controls printing, Epson controls color, matte ultra premium presentation paper. I still have my 2009 imac, (thankfully!), and so I can repeatedly verify with numerous images that the issue is NOT with the printer. I suspect the Epson driver, as my prints come out the same whether opened in Photoshop, or saved as a jpeg and opened and printed through preview. I have tried numerous minor changes to my printing settings, (like Epson standard vs Epson vivid) and the only thing that produces anything close is changing the paper setting to (non-ultra-premium) presentation paper matte, which prints at 720 instead of 1440. Still, this isn’t the solution I am looking for, since it is still not right. Any ideas?

[Farmer]

Are you sure you're using the driver downloaded from Epson and not the one automatically supplied by Apple (which is basically the devil incarnate)?

[Mark D Segal]

Also if you are using the real Epson driver, are you using the Airprint one (bad) or the Series one (good).

AND - any reason why you aren't printing using an ICC profile for that paper with Photoshop Manages Color?

[Simplicity]

I believe that I am using the Epson driver that I downloaded from their site. I am pretty sure that I wasn’t able to print without doing this, but I started on this headache over a month ago, so I might not be clear on this. I don’t know how to make sure I’m not using the devil incarnate. I don’t think that I am, but let me know how to verify. I also am not sure how to verify which Epson driver I (think I) am using, but there was only one option from their site that I saw, and I am connected to the printer via USB. As for why I am not using Photoshop to manage the colors, the surmountable hurdles are that I don’t really remember how to add icc profiles and I don’t have an icc profile for the ultra-premium matte. I have also (previously, at least) been under the impression that it was best to let Epson handle things, and I have always been satisfied with the results. If I have to go the Photoshop Manages route, I am willing to look into it and possibly ask for advice. But I am perplexed as to why I can’t carry on as usual with my new mac. Is anyone else out there still using an Epson 3800 with a 2017 imac, or macOS 10.13.x?

[Wayne Fox]

Pretty easy to tell if you are using the Epson driver.  Select print from the PS menu, then click Print Settings ...

From there click the popup labeled Layout and you should see Printer Settings. Once you select that you should see all of the choices for your printer, especially all the Epson Paper types.  The AirPrint driver looks quite a bit different.

Letting Photoshop manage colors is not difficult, the ICC profiles are all loaded into your computer when you install the driver.  Just select Photoshop Manges Colors, click the profile menu and scroll to the one for your paper.  If it's not there another clue the driver  hasn't been installed correctly.

It's not uncommon for someone not implementing a full color managed workflow to have things break when they switch computers.  Something about your old system didn't move across.

the 3800 driver is fully compatible with Mac OS High Sierra.

Not sure how you migrated, but you might need to clean things up, Andrew Rodney describes it as an "Epson enema"   

-Download and run the Epson  Uninstaller Utility from Epson
-Open Library>Printers and toss the Epson folder thats in there (this deletes anything epson related)
-Open the Mac Printers and Scanners preference panel (on older versions of Mac OS it's called Printers and Fax I believe) , and control click in the box with your list of printers.  Select reset printing system
-Restart the Mac
-Optional: Open disk utility and run Disk First Aid
-Download the current Epson Driver from Epson and re-install the Driver.

[Garnick]

What Mark and Wayne wrote +1.  Beyond that, this might perhaps be an easier way for you to determine which Epson driver you have installed on your new Mac.  Open "System Preferences", then "Printers & Scanners".  The next dialog with show the printer(s) that are installed on your computer, which in your case would probably be only the 3800.  On the left side you will see the printer list.  To the right there are some options. Click on "Options & Supplies". You will then see your Driver Name and Version.  Make sure the last word in the driver name is "Series", NOT Air Print!  The "Driver Version" should be 9.33 for OS 10.13.  Here is a link to the Epson download page for the 3800 and OS 10.13 - https://epson.com/Support/Printers/Professional-Imaging-Printers/Epson-Stylus-Pro-Series/Epson-Stylus-Pro-3800-Professional-Edition/s/SPT_C635011PRO?review-filter=macOS+10.13.x.  If you already have 9.33 installed that is the correct driver.  However, it might be a good idea to trash it, download again and install.  That way you will know it is not the driver that's causing your problem.  Also, as Wayne mentioned, all profiles for your 3800 will be loaded with the driver, so you should be able to find them when printing from Photoshop.  I understand and appreciate your reticence concerning the use of iCC profiles with Photoshop, but we can help you with that also if necessary.  It is a bit of a learning process, but once you have a routine mastered you will be able to produce better and more consistent prints.  I am including two screenshots of the System Prefs to get you to the Printer Driver Version.  Hope this helps.

Gary 

[Simplicity]

Thanks for all of the replies. Unfortunately, no avail. Tried multiple forms of the “Epson enema”. Prints still come out consistently underwhelming. Everything is slightly—but significantly-- weak, faded, faint.

After just reading the latest advice (thanks!), I was able to verify yet another way that I am using the correct driver, and I must have reinstalled it about 5 times by now. I tried printing with Photoshop Manages, using the profile SP3800 CPBFAP MK 1440 v1, which appears in my list of printer profiles and seemed the likely suspect, but the prints come out with the opposite problem—too dark/rich/saturated. Also tried SP3800 CPBFAP MK 2880 v1, which I thought should give about the same results, and unfortunately it did.

So when I use Photoshop, the colors are too rich, when I use Epson, the colors are too faint. Prints continue to come out in the middle, as I want them, with my 2009 imac (10.6..

I have read of another person having similar reproduction discrepancies with a 3800, but this person was comparing an image printed from the same computer a year later (likely after operating system and driver updates), so there was no way to continually do side by side comparisons.  This person went through relentless nozzle checks, then one by one ink replacements, and then ultimately decided that it must be the printer and bought a new one. This solved their problem, but I am guessing that the printer might not have been the problem at heart, but perhaps something more like what I am dealing with (whatever that is!).   

[Mark D Segal]

Wrong printer profile for the paper. The profile name should show it is for Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte (UPPM) or Epson Enhanced Matte (EMP) (same paper) if that's the paper you are using. If you use a profile that isn't meant for the paper you can encounter the kind of problems you are describing. The fact that the weakness is showing in the print preview means you have a colour management issue (software) of the kind we are discussing here, not that the printer is pooping out.

[Simplicity]

I saw something that made me think the profile I tried was right, but I sure wasn't sure. Thanks for the correction. I do not see the profile you mentioned for the UPPM, however, I do now see the profile Pro3800 3800C 3850 Standard, which now seems a more likely suspect. Should I try that one? 

[Simplicity]

I impatiently tried the profile I just mentioned. What a waste of ink!

So, how do I get the correct profile?

And-- not willing to let go of the perplexing problem even if I can circumnavigate it with Photoshop Manages Colors-- any further ideas on what my colour management issue is and how to resolve it?

[Mark D Segal]

The profile for that paper absolutely MUST be there. It is one of Epson's two most widely used papers. Look harder through all the profile listing provided.

[Mark D Segal]

Pro38EMP

[Simplicity]

OK. That one definitely didn't stand out, but looking back at your description I can see that it was clearly the closest match, so thanks for helping me with this oversight!

The good news is that this setting produces the best results so far!

But, I can still tell a difference, and I would like to get to the bottom of the original mystery if possible.

 

[Mark D Segal]

OK - let's clarify: you can tell a difference between what and what? Is it for the identical photo?

[Simplicity]

As impractical as it may be, I have been using numerous photos to avoid getting burned out on any one image. But I am printing from identical files. And as the ink has dried further, the differences are now nearly imperceptible. But they are still there, and the prints using my old mac and Epson controlling still look better to me (now stronger and more vibrant, for the most part) than those with my new mac and Photoshop controlling.

I am very happy to now have the correct printer profile for Photoshop to use as this is a tremendous improvement on previous results. I likely wouldn't have blinked if my prints came out like this a month ago or so when I started because they look so close I would have assumed they were identical. But since I have spent so much time scrutinizing them, it's now hard to let go of even this fractional difference in ultimate quality.

[Farmer]

1. You need to wait 30 minutes for the ink to stablise

2. The differences you see are indeed those created by the driver which, as set by you, is giving a more vibrant and saturated look

You can achieve that look using an ICC profile workflow, if you want, and you then gain the advantage of a workflow which isn't affected by changes in driver or operating systems (at least, in theory - obviously hiccoughs can occur but typically they are resolved).

So, yes, they're different because you're using different methods.

[Mark D Segal]

As impractical as it may be, I have been using numerous photos to avoid getting burned out on any one image. But I am printing from identical files. And as the ink has dried further, the differences are now nearly imperceptible. But they are still there, and the prints using my old mac and Epson controlling still look better to me (now stronger and more vibrant, for the most part) than those with my new mac and Photoshop controlling.

I am very happy to now have the correct printer profile for Photoshop to use as this is a tremendous improvement on previous results. I likely wouldn't have blinked if my prints came out like this a month ago or so when I started because they look so close I would have assumed they were identical. But since I have spent so much time scrutinizing them, it's now hard to let go of even this fractional difference in ultimate quality.

There is at least one more factor I'd suggest you verify: in your Print dialog settings, check what Rendering Intent is there, and if the Rendering Intent is Relative Colorimetric, which is good for a great many photos, verify whether the box for "Black Point Compensation" (BPC) is checked. Using this combination of RelCol and BPC could make a noticeable improvement to your print appearance.

[Mark D Segal]

1. You need to wait 30 minutes for the ink to stablise

2. The differences you see are indeed those created by the driver which, as set by you, is giving a more vibrant and saturated look

You can achieve that look using an ICC profile workflow, if you want, and you then gain the advantage of a workflow which isn't affected by changes in driver or operating systems (at least, in theory - obviously hiccoughs can occur but typically they are resolved).

So, yes, they're different because you're using different methods.

Phil,

Just to keep track of the progress, what we've done over the past day is moved Simplicity from a Printer Manages Color to a Photoshop Manages Color workflow. The reason for that of course is that by using the latter, Simplicity now has access to using a profile that has presumably been updated to reflect how that printer model (very dated by now) would perform with the newer Mac operating system. So the main reason for the big improvement already achieved was moving to a system-aware colour management mode. Now we are into the refinements to get Simplicity back to colours that this person found still better. If that's what you meant, we're on the same page.

Simplicity,

Relying on visual methods alone, there really is only one way of reliably comparing what you had before with what you have now: using a standard test image with known colours in both situations and comparing the prints. One such image I highly recommend is the Outback Photo image with its accompanying instructions on how to interpret it. As you change from one state to another in your print settings, you can print this and observe the differences, if any. Here is the link to the download from their website: Outback; go to the bottom of the page and click on the green "download here" to get the 40 MB file. Do not edit it at all before printing it.

To further improve the predictability of what comes out of your printer with what you see on your display, you need to make sure your display is properly calibrated and profiled, in particular that it is not too bright and contrasty (see Andrew Rodney's article on this website about "Why Are My Prints Too Dark"), and that you are viewing the photos on your display through a softproof condition that mimics the print appearance out of the printer. This is achieved by going into Photoshop's Softproof Condition menu and selecting your printer profile with paper colour and black point simulations both turned on (selected). There are lots of detailed instructions/tutorials available on this website for how to set that up. Michael and Jeff's "From Camera to Print" tutorials are amongst the best. Once you have this set up and activated, you'll want to do your photo editing with this softproof condition enabled. That will give you the best possible match between what is on your properly calibrated and profiled display with what comes out of the printer. This all only works as advertised when you are printing with Photoshop Manages Color, not the Printer managing.

[Simplicity]

I am using relative colorimetric and BPC. Also tried other combinations in an attempt to leave no rock unturned. I have also tried multiple different color settings (Photoshop--Edit--color settings).

I looked at your advice on improving the predictability of future prints, and now have the soft proofing set up correctly for printing with Photoshop if I need to continue (or ultimately choose [wisely] to continue) doing it that way. It now seems likely that I should be using the Pro38EMP for the color settings mentioned above. Thoughts?

I took a look at the Outback option and can definitely consider it for future print comparisons, but one of the images I have been using most has a lot of subtle variations of colors and patterns and gives me a lot to work with. And while this route of comparing changes may ultimately be my destiny, it's not what I was hoping for in the short term.

I was hoping—for the time being-- to simply print things exactly as before, with Epson managing the printing.

I am still unclear on why this is no longer possible and, more importantly, who to blame!
(Epson…Apple…Me?)

Still holding out hope for a magic fix, something I missed…

Maybe the Pro38EMP Color Setting?

[Mark D Segal]

It's really hard to know exactly what broke your previous workflow. All we have to go on is the coincidence that it occurred with the change of your computer. That would suggest something changed in the OSX Color Management Module, producing this result, but no way to know for sure. The best insurance against such nasty surprises in the future is to use Application Color Management with up-to-date profiles for your printer paper combination.