Printer Service manuals

[TonyW]

Has anyone had experience of purchasing service manuals from 2manuals.com and if so how what do you think?

[Farmer]

I think they're someone else's IP and the site is basically stealing them to sell.  I would hope that photographers wouldn't be keen to steal IP.

[TonyW]

I do appreciate your POV on intellectual property, assuming you mean this rather than an IP address which in this case leads to the Ukraine. 

Is there evidence to support the view that they are stealing I.P?  Are the service manuals actually original Epson documentation that has been copied or could they be third party articles?

So where would I be able to purchase service manuals for my HP, Epson, and Canon printers?

[Mark D Segal]

I've done some looking into this when I first heard of them because I wasn't sure this is legal, and I found out that it isn't. Those service manuals are the copyright and intellectual property of the company who manufactured the printer. The company does not issue the manuals to customers, as they are meant for the reference of trained service personnel who know how to use them correctly; they aren't written for the general public. They are also periodically updated and you don't know which version 2manuals is peddling to you and whether it is the most relevant one. So for my purposes, I take it that if I buy one of those manuals I am feeding an illegal operation. I also take it that buying it may not do me all that much good without the requisite training - I've seen an Epson 4900 being taken apart for service and I wouldn't like to start getting into that without adequate training. it isn't a Lego set. Now some people have more manual dexterity and native talent for tinkering with intricate machinery than I do, so as far as I'm concerned they can tinker away, but I believe in the theory of comparative advantage and the legal issue remains.

[enduser]

Another point of view is that going to a site that lets you look at a manual without any downloading is similar to using a public library. Part of the legal definition of theft is "depriving the owner of the IP of its use". Just looking online is depriving no one.

As to whether a person is able to undertake maintenance on these printers, there are users more experienced and qualified on this site than possibly the guy the manufacturer sends round.

My next printer will be an HP Z 3200 specifically because of Mark Lindquist's resources and comments. This is a win-win situation for both users and Hewlett Packard.

[Mark D Segal]

Another point of view is that going to a site that lets you look at a manual without any downloading is similar to using a public library. Part of the legal definition of theft is "depriving the owner of the IP of its use". Just looking online is depriving no one.

As to whether a person is able to undertake maintenance on these printers, there are users more experienced and qualified on this site than possibly the guy the manufacturer sends round.

My next printer will be an HP Z 3200 specifically because of Mark Lindquist's resources and comments. This is a win-win situation for both users and Hewlett Packard.

Not so sure about the analogy - I don't think the public library is allowed to shelve filched material covered by copyright. The law at issue here may not be theft - it's more likely copyright infringement, as the copyright provides the copyright owner control over distribution. People who abuse copyrights are depriving the copyright owner of legal control over their IP and the benefits of the copyright. In this particular case, part of the risk being protected against with the copyright is the reputational risk to the copyright owner that its materials get into hands that could misuse it, the results of which negatively impact on the owner's reputation.

I have no doubt there are some mechanically inclined folks who could manage to use the guidance in these manuals, but the public is very large and varied, so a company like Epson needs to think of the whole range of possibilities in deciding upon what they release into the public domain - especially these days when thanks to the Internet perfectly reasonable people can be erroneously and quite innocently seduced into believing that with a few clicks in Google they can be their own medical diagnosticians. Corporate lawyers and common sense would tend to keep company management rather less giving than some of us would like, but it's understandable.

[Farmer]

A public library paid for the publication and they don't charge you to use them (unless you are late).

[TonyW]

Thanks for the thoughtful and thought-provoking replies   

My situation has changed somewhat as originally I was trying to repair an old HP A3 printer and as one of the printheads was toast plus the fact that HP discontinued ink stopped me pursuing this course of action.  This decision leads me to consider a printer purchase and looking for the facility to print A2 I looked into used models.  A Canon IPF5100 and HP ? came up at very low cost (compared to new) and in considering such I felt it important to understand the workings in more depth than perhaps buying a new warranted item, hence my search for service manuals and my first post.

After much thought, I changed my mind and decided to buy newer technology, the choice between Epson P800 and the Canon Pro 1000.  Decided to opt for the Epson P800.

As to the legality, it does seem that there is a breach of copyright as the manuals are not revamped from the original service manuals (similar to other service manuals e.g. Haynes automobile comes to mind) but direct copies.  Funnily enough at least from my understanding, someone could teach me using the original manual as the syllabus and their own reworded manual from the original without any legal consequence.

On balance without any deep thoughts on this subject, I do tend to agree with those that argue against companies perceived to be "hiding behind copyright law".  For me, at this time it is a moot point anyway due to the arrival of a new machine.

FWIW a couple of examples of others thoughts on this

Let me make one thing clear: copyrighting repair manuals doesn't protect creative work and it doesn't prevent knock-off artists from copying design. All it does is stop people from fixing their things. It prevents independent repair facilities and shops from having the information they need to repair your stuff at competitive prices. And it prevents refurbishers from having the resources they require to fix products and put them back on the market.

Without critical repair information from the manufacturer, more and more of our goods will be shredded for recycling or worse, simply thrown away to make up part of the 1.37m tonnes of e-waste Britain disposes of each year.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/cease-and-desist-manuals-planned-obsolescence/
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/copyright-law-repair-manuals-circular-economy

[patjoja]

Has anyone had experience of purchasing service manuals from 2manuals.com and if so how what do you think?

I've seen them on the web, and have always shunned their service.  When I was looking for a service manual for my Epson 3880, I finally found one somewhere for free, so look around a bit more.  I wanted the manual to understand how the printer works, not so much to work on it myself.  As Mark S. mentioned, these printers can get pretty complicated to repair. 

Patrick

[bicubic]

I use http://archive.org/web/

It will put you in the time period for when each printer was released from companies like Epson and HP and pdfs are generally still linked. I've used it to recover firmware (tricky) and also find downloads now hidden in site redesigns. I've found Epson can recycle file names (over writing the previous link) so just look back more in time. Don't pay for what is freely available.

Cross referencing to other sites (often in other countries) that were major suppliers will often be where the gold is found.

[Endeavour]

If my printer goes wonky and there is a resource available for me to see/judge what's involved in diagnostic and if a repair is possible/plausible I am going to use that resource

I am almost certainly not going to pay for a service engineer given the age of my printer and what I paid for it (z3100)

Car manufacturers try and pull the same stunt. they dont want you fixing your own car either - which is why there is/was a huge market for Haynes manuals (the older versions being a complete strip and rebuild) of course a manufacturer would suggest that the car is far too complex to be fixed by a layman and needs to be touched only by a dealer or trained service engineer

In my case, even if I make a complete pig's ear of a DIY troubleshot & repair - the printer was destined for the scrap heap anyway as the cost of an engineer would most likely be a good portion of another purchase. Obviously this doesnt apply if your printer is under maintenance or reasonably new.

[PeterAit]

Has anyone had experience of purchasing service manuals from 2manuals.com and if so how what do you think?

I have always found that the manufacturer makes manuals available for free on the web. After all, the manual is useless unless you are a customer. Same for cameras, stoves, etc.

[Mark D Segal]

I have always found that the manufacturer makes manuals available for free on the web. After all, the manual is useless unless you are a customer. Same for cameras, stoves, etc.

Nope - this about another kind of manual: the Service Manual, written for trained technicians to repair printers using an accompanying diagnostic application; manufacturers exercise control over who has access to them. What we consumers can freely download from the web are User Manuals - different animal.

[PeterAit]

Nope - this about another kind of manual: the Service Manual, written for trained technicians to repair printers using an accompanying diagnostic application; manufacturers exercise control over who has access to them. What we consumers can freely download from the web are User Manuals - different animal.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Mark D Segal]

You are welcome.

[bicubic]

Yes—having certain printer service manuals can certainly get your hand slapped. If the manufacturer targets professional users, the service techs can say 'no' to fixing any problem they suspect you've been interfering with. Especially if the company checks each serial number before coming out and they see a service manual on the machine. This was from a very senior person at a really good printer manufacturer. Their techs would also ask you to step away from the machine and would not communicate while working.

However, legal positions from some countries, only force manufacturers to have parts available for 8 years on printer models (esp. large format models).

And after 8 years?

My best large format printer is 15 years old, runs harmonically, but will still cut my finger to the bone in service model (sensors off).

Vintage printers need the service manuals. And the biggest risk isn't legal... it's fingers and toes.

[enduser]

Well it's no secret that a very respected (in many fields) poster on this site not only helps users in difficulty with their printers. His information is from his own investigations, talking to high level employees of the printer makes, and using and referencing for others, the manuals.

I am certain the maker knows this and also recognizes the huge benefit they get from all that.

Too much fear prevents some from moving in his direction.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Well it's no secret that a very respected (in many fields) poster on this site not only helps users in difficulty with their printers. His information is from his own investigations, talking to high level employees of the printer makes, and using and referencing for others, the manuals.

I am certain the maker knows this and also recognizes the huge benefit they get from all that.

Too much fear prevents some from moving in his direction.

There was a time you could buy Epson parts easily and the service manuals were not that hard to get either. Epson put way more control on the distribution of both I think around the introduction of the x800 series. Service manuals were linked to the service men using them so they became hesitant in sharing them. In total Epson has a more proprietary policy on parts, maintenance etc.  Heads are not meant to be exchanged by the user, waste tank got a chip as well when the 10000 was introduced. It is a well known fact that the profit in selling printers, including wide formats, is in the inks but less well known is that service is seen as the profit side too on wide formats. In the past the Epson service was contracted to other companies, I have seen some going belly up as the profit was not at their side.

Other printer manufacturer companies have a far more open approach to the customers. Aware of the special needs too. Where would you find a media preset + instructions to print films for alternative photo processes that has been privately developed by an engineer of the company and released with permission of that company?  Whether things are legal is one thing, whether companies see PR as a first priority is another thing. I think HP is the company most active in legal battles to fight third party ink manufacturers but is more careful in its relation with the customer. Cartridge design protection is severe too. Maybe by that there is less a need to make a huge profit on the service side of the printers and heads are already meant to be replaced by the user. There still is the profit in selling the parts. The warranty contracts will add to the profit too but as I understand it they are not overpriced.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Farmer]

You can easily buy Epson parts - any spare parts distributor or service agent in Australia, for example, sells them.  Proprietary manuals are not sold or made available by any of the major companies directly.  There's not a lot of difference.