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Author Topic: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.  (Read 2561 times)

greyscale

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Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« on: March 15, 2018, 01:32:31 pm »

I'm wondering, can LULA exist without the paid members?. I for one will not renew my membership at LULA. I feel no need to support a site in which political discussions are allowed. That topic IMHO should be taken to other sites. Micheal Reichmann started LULA as a teaching site. LULA under the present ownership has not continued that important part of the LULU tradition. I hope LULA can go forward as they are, again IMHO, not TEACHING anything to anyone. Unless of course one includes political science.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2018, 02:16:26 pm »

This is exponentially over the top.

I'm not keen to see a political section on the site for reasons of reputational risk, security and risk of trolling, as I have said in the other thread. I don't know the probability of occurrence of these risks - my only point is that there is no need to take them.

HOWEVER THAT SAID, the site needs paid members to survive. That's why the fee was introduced - to keep the site alive. I for one (and I'm sure I'm in the company of a great many thousands here) am very grateful, and feel very fortunate that Kevin Raber has taken on the responsibility of continuing the fine tradition Michael built with LuLa over the years, whether there is a political thread in Coffee Corner or not. If you look at the sheer volume and high quality of truly informative material Kevin has published on this site since he began managing it, how you can say there is nothing to learn from here leaves me gasping for breath, it's such utter nonsense. Of course you are free to bite your nose to spite your face by unsubscribing, but that's your problem.
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2018, 02:16:53 pm »

John,
No, this site could not exist without paid members. As far as your teaching comment goes, that is complete twaddle. If the many hours of Charles Cramer videos teach you nothing, then you are unlikely receptive to teaching on the subjects of photography, technique and printing.

Chris S

Kevin Raber

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2018, 03:44:19 pm »

John, This site could not exist without the members.  for the small fee of a dollar a month we provide more useful content than just about any other site.  Our videos alone the Leica story and Shooting with the masters should be well worth the price of admission.  In addition reviews, many great articles from very talented contributors are all part of the site.  Throw in the Forum and you have quite a resource.  If you don't like the political bantering then stay away from it.  The forum is an area where open discussion on a variety of topics can be discussed.  The forum is now under the moderation of Jeremy Roussak and I am confident he will keep it under control.  The coffee corner is an open area where members can discuss many things.  I agreed to reopen the Coffee Corner to political topics as long as it stayed there and as long as it remains civil.

As I am not interested in the political discussion I just avoid it.  There is still plenty of other great photo related material on the forum. 

Chris, Debra, Michael and myself have thrown our hearts and soul into this site and will continue to do so for the good of our members and the passion all of us have for photography.  We share and teach all the time.  You are welcome to contribute too. 
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David Mantripp

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2018, 07:05:25 am »

I find it completely bizarre how people can put different aspects of life into hermetically sealed silos.  Photography doesn't live in a vacuum. In many political regimes, past, present and, it would seem, future, photography as we practise is either completely forbidden or considered by The Authorities to be extremely suspicious behaviour.  If you want to bury your head in the sand, or declare the Our Great Leader would never allow that, well up to you, but that kind of behaviour can also be considered an abdication of responsibility to society. 

Personally I am sick to the back tweet of Trump/Brexit/Trump/Brexit/Trump etc etc, and I'm extremely concerned about Russia and even more so about China, in the former case in particular with regards to environmental issues (although the USA is doing a good job of catching up there). I don't participate much in online political discussions due to the completely entrenched Spy vs. Spy attitudes, which have always been present but are now accelerating exponentially due to social median collapsing standards of education, civility and public discourse.

But the fact that Lula has decided to explicitly allow political discourse within a clearly ring-fenced forum area to me can only be a positive move.  The world is going to hell in a hand basket, on multiple fronts.  Denying discourse in any form will only accelerate that.
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Rob C

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 07:55:57 am »

I find it completely bizarre how people can put different aspects of life into hermetically sealed silos.  Photography doesn't live in a vacuum. In many political regimes, past, present and, it would seem, future, photography as we practise is either completely forbidden or considered by The Authorities to be extremely suspicious behaviour.  If you want to bury your head in the sand, or declare the Our Great Leader would never allow that, well up to you, but that kind of behaviour can also be considered an abdication of responsibility to society. 

Personally I am sick to the back tweet of Trump/Brexit/Trump/Brexit/Trump etc etc, and I'm extremely concerned about Russia and even more so about China, in the former case in particular with regards to environmental issues (although the USA is doing a good job of catching up there). I don't participate much in online political discussions due to the completely entrenched Spy vs. Spy attitudes, which have always been present but are now accelerating exponentially due to social median collapsing standards of education, civility and public discourse.

But the fact that Lula has decided to explicitly allow political discourse within a clearly ring-fenced forum area to me can only be a positive move.  The world is going to hell in a hand basket, on multiple fronts.  Denying discourse in any form will only accelerate that.


Well said.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 08:11:03 am »

John, This site could not exist without the members.  for the small fee of a dollar a month we provide more useful content than just about any other site.  Our videos alone the Leica story and Shooting with the masters should be well worth the price of admission.  In addition reviews, many great articles from very talented contributors are all part of the site.  Throw in the Forum and you have quite a resource.  If you don't like the political bantering then stay away from it.  The forum is an area where open discussion on a variety of topics can be discussed.  The forum is now under the moderation of Jeremy Roussak and I am confident he will keep it under control.  The coffee corner is an open area where members can discuss many things.  I agreed to reopen the Coffee Corner to political topics as long as it stayed there and as long as it remains civil.

As I am not interested in the political discussion I just avoid it.  There is still plenty of other great photo related material on the forum. 

Chris, Debra, Michael and myself have thrown our hearts and soul into this site and will continue to do so for the good of our members and the passion all of us have for photography.  We share and teach all the time.  You are welcome to contribute too.


Despite the occasional bitching, I think most of us here are really grateful that LuLa exists at all. Thanks!

Rob

PeterAit

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2018, 11:28:16 am »


Despite the occasional bitching, I think most of us here are really grateful that LuLa exists at all. Thanks!

Rob

Add me to that list! I have learned hugely about photography from LuLa, and the occasional political bloviation is easily ignored. Keep on truckin', LuLa!!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2018, 07:14:09 pm »

But the fact that Lula has decided to explicitly allow political discourse within a clearly ring-fenced forum area to me can only be a positive move.  The world is going to hell in a hand basket, on multiple fronts.  Denying discourse in any form will only accelerate that.

+1

Cheers,
Bernard

mbaginy

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2018, 01:52:14 am »

Add me to that list! I have learned hugely about photography from LuLa, and the occasional political bloviation is easily ignored. Keep on truckin', LuLa!!
Add me to that list as well.  Thanks, LuLa staff and contributers!
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2018, 03:21:51 am »

Just to say,

Sincere thanks for that!

Best regards
Erik



Chris, Debra, Michael and myself have thrown our hearts and soul into this site and will continue to do so for the good of our members and the passion all of us have for photography.  We share and teach all the time.  You are welcome to contribute too.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 05:05:31 pm »

Add me to that list! I have learned hugely about photography from LuLa, and the occasional political bloviation is easily ignored. Keep on truckin', LuLa!!

I volunteered to act as moderator because I have both hugely enjoyed LuLa over the last 14 years and learned an enormous amount from the people here. I want to give something back. I hope I can.

Jeremy
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Chris Kern

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 06:23:49 pm »

My annual subscription to LuLa costs approximately what my wife and I pay on a one-time basis—each—for a seat at our local cinema.  And that's with a "senior discount."

(Come to think of it, a few of the LuLa videos are more entertaining than some of the first-run films we've seen lately. . . . )

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 11:08:40 pm »

Thanks! Much appreciated!

Erik

I volunteered to act as moderator because I have both hugely enjoyed LuLa over the last 14 years and learned an enormous amount from the people here. I want to give something back. I hope I can.

Jeremy
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Rand47

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2018, 12:19:52 pm »

Quote
. . .   But the fact that Lula has decided to explicitly allow political discourse within a clearly ring-fenced forum area to me can only be a positive move.  . . .

Not that I necessarily disagree, but this is like keeping the rebellious child locked in the back bedroom.  LOLOLOLOL   It works to keep the house quiet, but probably doesn't speak well of the parents for allowing the rebellion to exist in the first place.  It isn't "political discourse" that is the problem - it is the rancorous, corrosive, vitriolic, ad hominem diatribe that inevitably ensues that is the problem.  And far from its existence preventing the acceleration of the basket on its merry way to hell, I think it widens the divide and gives said basket a nice bump in velocity.  With a moderator working diligently to prevent such rancor, it will spur ever more subtle and creative ways to insult someone so as to stay "just this side" of running afoul of whatever the threshold to banishment happens to be.  IMO, that's the best we can hope for.  Why not just have a single thread where both sides give it their best shot at denigrating "the other side" in any manner they wish - and be done with it.  We don't even need a specific subject in order to do so - the assumptions about what the other side thinks, how nuts it is, how sub-human anyone must be to hold such a position, are all well known by both sides.  It might even be more entertaining than the average subject-specific culture war skirmish that we see here.

Rand

« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 12:24:52 pm by Rand47 »
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Krug

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Re: Etiquette and political discussions and paid members.
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2018, 09:53:28 am »

I would refer back to my posting on the previous thread ... why do we need an all-purpose site ?  I come here very morning (often just briefly) to see what is new in areas of photography that interest me ... and I come because that information and discussion is informed and illuminated by the individual and collective photographic knowledge and experience which this site offers both in the 'editorial' content and in the forums - thank you all so much for that you have taught me much and broadened photographic horizons for me over the past dozen years.

 I go elsewhere for informed information and debate in other subject areas.

That loses nothing in terms of freedom of speech ... but it ensures that any photography discussion is not bedevilled by the kind of animosities that seem to be inseparable from political and religious debate and which so quickly take on a bar room character ... and, of course, if I want a good old slanging match then that is where I can go.

The freedom of speech thing is covered by the Voltaire quip that we should defend 'to the death' the rights of bar room - and elsewhere - for political and indeed existential debate to take place in the world.  The 'freedom of speech' issue on any particular specialist 'professional' site should surely be limited to freedom to discuss all and any issues relating to that specialism ... so for us without restriction on brand, format, photographic subject matter or any other similar things.
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