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Author Topic: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"  (Read 14129 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #100 on: March 13, 2018, 03:57:54 PM »

... I'm not "picking a fight" with anyone, merely disagreeing; and your use of that phrase is perhaps indicative of why some threads disintegrate into abuse so easily...


Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #101 on: March 13, 2018, 04:03:14 PM »

Quote
College graduates are more supportive than non-graduates. Indeed, a 2016 Knight Foundation survey showed that college students are less likely than the overall population to support restrictions on speech on campus.

"Yale fail: Ivy leaguers sign 'petition' to repeal First Amendment"

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/12/16/yale-fail-ivy-leaguers-caught-on-video-clamoring-to-kill-first-amendment.html

Quote
... a solid majority of the students asked willingly signed the petition, with several expressing their enthusiastic approval for his anti-First Amendment efforts.

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #102 on: March 13, 2018, 04:14:26 PM »

Well, Russ, here's the takeaway:

What it "means" is that anecdotal incidents where a group of lefty students can't stand to have their delicate sensibilities offended are seemingly statistically insignificant, and that one ought not to draw societal conclusions about liberals, universities, or students because of them, because said conclusions would be, in a word, wrong.  (Unless, apparently, you're shutting down the right of a Muslim to speak, in which case there are some alarming tendencies toward that particular sort of censorship.  I suspect it's not the lefty students doing that, though.)

Really? You don't think you can draw any conclusions from the fact that the use of violence or the threat of violence to shut down an argument always seems to come from one side of the argument and almost never from the other side?

And if, as your "takeaway" claims: "People on the political right are less supportive of free speech than people on the left." Can you give me even one example of the political right using violence or the threat of violence to shut down speech, especially on campus? I keep getting vague assertions, like these, that it happens, but nobody seems to be able to come up with an example. I can pretty easily come up with a dozen cases of the left using violence or the threat of violence to shut down conservative speech, especially on campus.

Can you draw conclusions from the fact that the sun seems always to rise in the morning and, so far, never in the evening? Yes. I can draw conclusions from evidence as one-sided as that.

amolitor

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #103 on: March 13, 2018, 04:21:27 PM »

Slobodan, I must say I find it quite unlikely that you have somehow failed to do the homework on that video. You are an intelligent fellow and perfectly capable of using Google.

There is therefore no need for me to perform the tedious errand of detailing what exactly is true, what is false, and what falls into a gray area, regarding that video.
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James Clark

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #104 on: March 13, 2018, 04:26:32 PM »

"Yale fail: Ivy leaguers sign 'petition' to repeal First Amendment"

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/12/16/yale-fail-ivy-leaguers-caught-on-video-clamoring-to-kill-first-amendment.html

That's cute, in a Jon Stewart kind of way.  But at least maybe some of those goofballs can't vote yet. Hopefully they'll get US History 101 before they bother.  :)

On the other hand, at least it's not like they have any actual capacity to effect change and want to open up those libel laws regarding public figures or anything.   THAT would be really concerning.
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amolitor

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #105 on: March 13, 2018, 04:37:24 PM »

Hypothetically, now, purely hypothetically, with the kind of prescriptive rules we are operating under the following scenario becomes viable:

Hypothesize, if you will, a small group of people interested in chaos rather than debate. This group can engage in baiting behavior, spending perhaps 5 minutes a day dashing off standard fare they've used before, or are lifting from other forums. This dashed off material is designed to lure the opposition in to spending substantially more time replying to the bait, as well as to be irritating to the other side. In addition, this material is designed to comply with prescriptive rules, perhaps, for example, it lacks cursing and personal insults, but speaks airily of "general groups" leaving the obvious targets unmentioned.

This costs the baiters essentially nothing, and since they have no real skin in the game, they can do it more or less forever without ever violating one of the prescriptions. Remember, these hypothetical entities simply don't care, they have no emotional involvement, and anyways they're writing at most a handful of words a day. It is therefore easy for them to police their own efforts to remain within the envelope of whatever the forum's prescriptions are.

By keeping the opposition busy and irritated, and by eliciting much lengthier and detailed responses from  the opposition, they essentially guarantee that, eventually, each member of the opposition will, in a fit of irritation, break one of the forum prescriptions. This is, hypothetically, the actual goal of the game. This is the victory condition of this mythical game I am sketching out here, in an exercise of the imagination.

Moderation, therefore, gets applied almost exclusively to people who are actually trying to discuss things. Hypothetically.

Eventually, everyone except the baiters leaves.

Then the forum has several options available, it can lie fallow. It can close up shop. It can pivot to serving a fringe audience, like godlike.com, and evidently there's good money to be made there. So, that could be good.

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James Clark

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #106 on: March 13, 2018, 04:58:12 PM »

Really? You don't think you can draw any conclusions from the fact that the use of violence or the threat of violence to shut down an argument always seems to come from one side of the argument and almost never from the other side?

And if, as your "takeaway" claims: "People on the political right are less supportive of free speech than people on the left." Can you give me even one example of the political right using violence or the threat of violence to shut down speech, especially on campus? I keep getting vague assertions, like these, that it happens, but nobody seems to be able to come up with an example. I can pretty easily come up with a dozen cases of the left using violence or the threat of violence to shut down conservative speech, especially on campus.

Can you draw conclusions from the fact that the sun seems always to rise in the morning and, so far, never in the evening? Yes. I can draw conclusions from evidence as one-sided as that.

One.
Two.
Three.

But this isn't even the point.  The point is, and remains, that you are assuming isolated incidents reflect the left as a whole, when there's plenty of evidence that that's not the case.   And you're compounding your error by seemingly excusing their mirrors on the right by claiming that they are somehow less representative because apparently they do their violence in the street instead of on campus, or simply denying that said claims are reputable because "fake news" (while simultaneously citing Breitbart, which is absurd)

Were someone to simply state that incidents like Berkeley are abhorrent and need to be condemned, I suspect very few would disagree with you, and most would doubtlessly agree that these specific lefties are problematic, but this whole thread started with a thinly researched accusation that "progressives" are less tolerant than conservatives as a rule, and it doesn't seem to be true, at least not based on anything presented here.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 05:33:45 PM by James Clark »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #107 on: March 13, 2018, 06:55:43 PM »

... By keeping the opposition busy and irritated, and by eliciting much lengthier and detailed responses from  the opposition, they essentially guarantee that, eventually, each member of the opposition will, in a fit of irritation, break one of the forum prescriptions...

Quote
Outbursts of emotional hostility from progressive activists ... have come to be known as getting ‘triggered.’ This term originally applied to sufferers of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, but activists have adopted it to describe the anxiety and discomfort they experience when they are exposed to views with which they disagree.

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #108 on: March 13, 2018, 07:51:51 PM »

One.
Two.
Three.

And the violence used during these "backlashes" was. . .?

Bob J

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #109 on: March 13, 2018, 09:17:43 PM »

And the violence used during these "backlashes" was. . .?

Looking at the first case...

"He noted that among the more than 700 comments on Martin's Facebook post are attacks against him, including several who expressed a desire to punch him in the face. He called on Martin to urge his followers to cease such attacks, including calls for his termination,"

So threats to his person, to his job, plus some pretty derogatory language.
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #110 on: March 13, 2018, 09:21:07 PM »



Hi Slobodan,

You only quoted the contribution of others.

Your contribution with your post (Reply #107) is ...?

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Bob J

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #111 on: March 13, 2018, 09:21:20 PM »

And the violence used during these "backlashes" was. . .?

And the second..

"We worried about safety of students, and about perhaps having a guest on campus not be treated right,” Long said.

“I hope that our civic discourse here would be respectful to all persons in the future. I felt the behaviors in some of the messages to me were not respectful.”
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 09:25:34 PM by Bob J »
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James Clark

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2018, 09:29:25 PM »

And the violence used during these "backlashes" was. . .?

"..or threat of violence..."

But by all means, keeps moving the goalposts when you're proven wrong.  You're quite adept at that.  So, to repeat myself.  Again.

Quote
But this isn't even the point.  The point is, and remains, that you are assuming isolated incidents reflect the left as a whole, when there's plenty of evidence that that's not the case.   And you're compounding your error by seemingly excusing their mirrors on the right by claiming that they are somehow less representative because apparently they do their violence in the street instead of on campus, or simply denying that said claims are reputable because "fake news" (while simultaneously citing Breitbart, which is absurd)
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Bob J

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2018, 09:33:47 PM »

And the violence used during these "backlashes" was. . .?

The third does not mention physical violence directly, but did involve shouting the speaker down (so denying him free speech) simply because he wasn't using English and would seem to have been raucous enough to justify bringing in the police to keep order.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2018, 10:29:56 PM »

... several who expressed a desire to punch him in the face....

Pope Francis: 'I'll PUNCH anyone who insults my mother'

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pope-francis-ill-punch-anyone-4987451

James Clark

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2018, 10:40:13 PM »

Pope Francis: 'I'll PUNCH anyone who insults my mother'

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pope-francis-ill-punch-anyone-4987451

Playing the troll and goading "liberals" into expressing frustration because you refuse to engage in honest conversation doesn't actually support the point of your original article.  You know that right?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 10:43:22 PM by James Clark »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2018, 10:57:43 PM »

... because you refuse to engage in honest conversation...

I will not participate by "engaging" in any conversation on political or social issues* as long as Andrew Molitor continues to post on LuLa without any censure, after engaging in vicious personal attacks against me and Russ, using horrible obscenities in the recently locked thread (providing now a perfect example for the OP article):

Quote
“… wildly fucking offensive.
 
Let's try this out, Russ. I'm gonna hold a gun to one of your loved one's heads now "Suck my cock, Russ, or I will blow her fucking head off, but hey, you've got a choice, so it must just be that you love the dick, right? C'mon, big guy, on your knees!”
 
“Slobodan and Russ, you are a fucking problem”

* For those who are cheering my decision, or heaving a sigh or relief... settle down, I love you too

amolitor

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #117 on: March 13, 2018, 11:16:53 PM »

I was frankly surprised not to be particularly censured and have no particular objection to a retroactive decision being made and applied.
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James Clark

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2018, 11:25:01 PM »

I will not participate by "engaging" in any conversation on political or social issues* as long as Andrew Molitor continues to post on LuLa without any censure, after engaging in vicious personal attacks against me and Russ, using horrible obscenities in the recently locked thread...

So you'll just troll everyone else because Andrew went off on a hyperbolic rant?  Is that simply misplaced aggression or have you been triggered ;)
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Farmer

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #119 on: March 13, 2018, 11:35:51 PM »

So you'll just troll everyone else because Andrew went off on a hyperbolic rant?  Is that simply misplaced aggression or have you been triggered ;)

https://goo.gl/images/7h8oHh

:-)
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Phil Brown
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