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Author Topic: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"  (Read 53057 times)

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #300 on: March 23, 2018, 03:46:24 pm »

And luck. Never underestimate the influence of luck on life expectancy.

Jeremy

I'll endorse Jeremy on that one, with a slight modification. I just turned 88. I started smoking when I was 16. Quit when I was 55. Flew fighter bombers, and later bush planes into and out of small northern dirt strips. Went to war three times. Had a whole array of close calls. I'm still here.

I guess you can call it luck, but I think there's more to it than that. The hairy experience I remember most of all out of a plethora of hairy experiences was the time in gunnery school when I was scheduled to fly one of our antique F-80's on a high-angle dive bombing exercise. I did the usual walk-around, checking for fuel leaks, popped fasteners, tires properly inflated, etc. As I walked by the tail I gave the elevators a flip. They locked in the up position. I aborted my flight and reported the problem. The school grounded all the f-80's immediately and checked the elevator assemblies in all of them. Mine had a counterweight that had come loose. If I'd flown that airplane I'd be dead. Flipping the elevators wasn't part of the checklist, nor was it something I'd ever done before.

I think something guided my hand when I reached up and flipped that elevator. That one's not the only time I should have bought the farm but didn't, but it's the one that makes me shiver when I think about it. I guess you can call it luck if you want to.
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Farmer

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #301 on: March 23, 2018, 04:50:01 pm »

And luck. Never underestimate the influence of luck on life expectancy.

Indeed! 
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Phil Brown

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #302 on: March 23, 2018, 04:58:22 pm »

I'll endorse Jeremy on that one, with a slight modification. I just turned 88. I started smoking when I was 16. Quit when I was 55. Flew fighter bombers, and later bush planes into and out of small northern dirt strips. Went to war three times. Had a whole array of close calls. I'm still here.

I guess you can call it luck, but I think there's more to it than that. The hairy experience I remember most of all out of a plethora of hairy experiences was the time in gunnery school when I was scheduled to fly one of our antique F-80's on a high-angle dive bombing exercise. I did the usual walk-around, checking for fuel leaks, popped fasteners, tires properly inflated, etc. As I walked by the tail I gave the elevators a flip. They locked in the up position. I aborted my flight and reported the problem. The school grounded all the f-80's immediately and checked the elevator assemblies in all of them. Mine had a counterweight that had come loose. If I'd flown that airplane I'd be dead. Flipping the elevators wasn't part of the checklist, nor was it something I'd ever done before.

I think something guided my hand when I reached up and flipped that elevator. That one's not the only time I should have bought the farm but didn't, but it's the one that makes me shiver when I think about it. I guess you can call it luck if you want to.

I think that's called experience, Russ.  Subconscious, unintended, but skillful and knowledgeable response to environment due to specific experience (and ability, actually).  I remember reading about Chuck Yeager and the most common thing people said about him was that he ALWAYS had more options than everyone else.  Those options came from experience and ability (and extremely good long sight, apparently).  Of course, if you're so inclined you can put it down to divine providence, but that's not my thing (if there's free will, why would He be stepping in only in some cases but letting others die - seems unreasonable in the extreme).  I've never been to war or anything of the sort, but even with 40 years less experience than you, I have had numerous occasions in which seemingly insignificant or almost whimsical decisions have been life saving in retrospect, or where circumstance conspired to have safety and saviour there at the right time (either for me, or for me to provide it to others).  I think it's a natural human process to attempt to explain everything, and so we attribute such things to some sort of cause - whatever that may be from time to time.

But also, as Jeremy said, luck.  Pure unadulterated random chance - it's a biggy.
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Phil Brown

Damon Lynch

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #303 on: March 23, 2018, 05:01:48 pm »


Even if my head were capable of doing a Beetlejuice, the illustration would be adrift because it functions or, rather, predicates it's position on the possibility of happiness being a relatively constant condition for some sectors of earners, and attempting to make a connection between people who decide to make particular decisions, simply because they can, and that impossible to define "politically correct" use of, and relationship between, earning power and use of earned income. They are a string of red herrings still in the smoker.

As I indicated, happiness is not a constant state, and it can be experienced by pauper as well as by zillionaire. There is no firm ground for anything that attempts to make relatively fixed correlationships as does the article you quoted.

Now, if you want to change the discussion to comfort rather than happiness, indeed money can work natural wonders. But comfort and happiness are not the same thing. So, any implied direct and exclusive relationship between money and happiness is bogus.

One moment you're talking about "punitive, vindictive taxation", and now this.....  it seems you're truly in your own world.
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RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #304 on: March 23, 2018, 05:16:32 pm »

I think that's called experience, Russ.  Subconscious, unintended, but skillful and knowledgeable response to environment due to specific experience (and ability, actually).  I remember reading about Chuck Yeager and the most common thing people said about him was that he ALWAYS had more options than everyone else.  Those options came from experience and ability (and extremely good long sight, apparently).  Of course, if you're so inclined you can put it down to divine providence, but that's not my thing (if there's free will, why would He be stepping in only in some cases but letting others die - seems unreasonable in the extreme).  I've never been to war or anything of the sort, but even with 40 years less experience than you, I have had numerous occasions in which seemingly insignificant or almost whimsical decisions have been life saving in retrospect, or where circumstance conspired to have safety and saviour there at the right time (either for me, or for me to provide it to others).  I think it's a natural human process to attempt to explain everything, and so we attribute such things to some sort of cause - whatever that may be from time to time.

But also, as Jeremy said, luck.  Pure unadulterated random chance - it's a biggy.

Hi Phil, I averted disaster a number of other times, often I'm sure through experience and quick thinking. But the thing that grabs me about that particular one is that there's no item on the checklist that says "flip the elevators," and I'd never done it before. As far as I know, nobody did it. It was just a casual flip. There was no reason to do it. You can be sure I always did that from then on.

I don't understand those things either, but I have to believe what happened was more than luck. I certainly think there's a reason for all that, but I also think it's a reason no one in this world can understand.
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Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #305 on: March 23, 2018, 06:13:00 pm »

One moment you're talking about "punitive, vindictive taxation", and now this.....  it seems you're truly in your own world.


Naturally; you widen the scope by moving the posts, so if I am going to respond, then there's little option but to cover the ground you describe. What else?

:-)

John Camp

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #306 on: March 23, 2018, 09:56:03 pm »

To get back closer to the topic, the main problem as I see it is the stupid wastage of resources by wealthy people who have far more money than they need.

When a billionaire spends a thousand dollars, it's equivalent to a millionaire spending just one dollar. A fancy, gold-plated, jeweled, designer watch that cost say $100,000, is of no concern to the billionaire. It's equivalent to a millionaire buying a $100 watch.

As the guy who started the argument about essentially confiscatory taxes above a certain amount to prevent multi-generational unearned riches (an idea that I advocate, unlike persons who prefer to be subjects rather than free men) I have to say I completely disagree with you. When a billionaire buys a $100,000 watch, that money's not just wasted -- it goes to all the people who have the jobs that produced the watch -- the watch-making company, the watch-makers themselves, the machinists, all the way down to the company janitors. The purchase may be in some sense meaningless to the billionaire, but it's not to the people who made the watch. I read somewhere that Johnny Depp and a bunch of friends were in a high-end restaurant in England, and Depp ordered and paid for a $24,000 bottle of wine. The money went to the restaurant, the servers, the winery,etc. So good on Johnny. He earned the money, let him spend it. It's much better spent, that it is stuck in a hedge fund somewhere, where the fund buys companies, strips them of all value, then shuts them down and kills the jobs. (I'm looking at you, Mitt Romney.)
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Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #307 on: March 24, 2018, 05:46:10 am »

As the guy who started the argument about essentially confiscatory taxes above a certain amount to prevent multi-generational unearned riches (an idea that I advocate, unlike persons who prefer to be subjects rather than free men) I have to say I completely disagree with you. When a billionaire buys a $100,000 watch, that money's not just wasted -- it goes to all the people who have the jobs that produced the watch -- the watch-making company, the watch-makers themselves, the machinists, all the way down to the company janitors. The purchase may be in some sense meaningless to the billionaire, but it's not to the people who made the watch. I read somewhere that Johnny Depp and a bunch of friends were in a high-end restaurant in England, and Depp ordered and paid for a $24,000 bottle of wine. The money went to the restaurant, the servers, the winery,etc. So good on Johnny. He earned the money, let him spend it. It's much better spent, that it is stuck in a hedge fund somewhere, where the fund buys companies, strips them of all value, then shuts them down and kills the jobs. (I'm looking at you, Mitt Romney.)

John, I'm with you regarding the watch, but not the wine.

The watch can be handed down or traded-in, if not to be retained as part of a collection, but the wine? That's just a rip-off with the price going into mark-up, not production. As doubtful as the buyer's ability to taste a difference may or may not be, the final disappointment (or deliverance) comes a short while later when if flows out of his dick into either a replica Duchamp if he's still on his feet, or into a toilet pan if he's seated in order not to fall down; there's even a chance it could flow down behind a tree or a hedge and vanish, forever, back into the sod from which it sprang, give a few kilometres or more.

I'm all for the freedom of choice to do that silly thing, but I can't accept it as being as valid a choice as the puchase of the timepiece.

;-)

Ray

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #308 on: March 24, 2018, 09:27:23 am »

As the guy who started the argument about essentially confiscatory taxes above a certain amount to prevent multi-generational unearned riches (an idea that I advocate, unlike persons who prefer to be subjects rather than free men) I have to say I completely disagree with you. When a billionaire buys a $100,000 watch, that money's not just wasted -- it goes to all the people who have the jobs that produced the watch -- the watch-making company, the watch-makers themselves, the machinists, all the way down to the company janitors. The purchase may be in some sense meaningless to the billionaire, but it's not to the people who made the watch. I read somewhere that Johnny Depp and a bunch of friends were in a high-end restaurant in England, and Depp ordered and paid for a $24,000 bottle of wine. The money went to the restaurant, the servers, the winery,etc. So good on Johnny. He earned the money, let him spend it. It's much better spent, that it is stuck in a hedge fund somewhere, where the fund buys companies, strips them of all value, then shuts them down and kills the jobs. (I'm looking at you, Mitt Romney.)

I have to say, John, that you have completely missed my point about efficient use of resources. I'm surprised, but never mind. I understand that not everyone is as smart as me.  ;D

The fundamental basis of all wealth and prosperity is energy, in combination with the innovative and efficient uses of that energy.
The forms of energy I'm referring to are coal, oil, gas, solar, windmill, hydro, and most importantly, food, and so on.

The distribution of that energy is expressed in terms of money. For example, lets compare a car factory in America with a car factory in China. Let's assume that the sophistication of the production technology is the same, and let's assume that the energy costs, such as electricity to operate the mechanization and robots, are the same.

Let's inquire why the Chinese cars could be cheaper. They are cheaper because China has produced cars using less energy, that is, in a more efficient way. How have they used less energy? Answer, by apportioning less energy to the human workers in the car factory. They pay them lower wages. Money directly equates to energy.

The higher paid American worker uses more energy. If he's sensible, he uses that energy efficiently. He drives to work in a basic and practical car. The Chinese worker, equally sensible, might not be able to afford a car. He cycles to work on his bicycle. He uses less energy. The energy he uses is equivalent to a small amount of food.

People who manufacture $100,000 watches get paid wages, of course. If they are sensible, they'll use those wages in a productive manner, to buy a house, clothes, car, food, and support their children. However, the point you have missed is the lack of any productive nature and usefulness of the final product, the expensive watch.

The Roman soldier who spends his days picking up pebbles from the beach, then placing them back again, also gets paid a useful wage that helps him to support his family, if he has one. But don't you see, if the Roman soldiers were instructed to help the villagers to build dam walls and improve their infrastructure, that would be a more efficient and productive use of their time?

People who spend huge sums of money (energy) on useless products, such as fancy watches, are plain idiots.
All the problems we have in the world, are due to too many idiots and nutcases having too much influence. Sorry to be so blunt, but those are the facts, in my very humble opinion, of course.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 09:31:18 am by Ray »
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RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #309 on: March 24, 2018, 09:34:25 am »

And I have to say that this is the most hilarious discussion I've seen in a long time. Thomas Sowell would roll on the floor laughing.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #310 on: March 24, 2018, 09:40:37 am »

... People who spend huge sums of money (energy) on useless products, such as fancy watches, are plain idiots...

Does that apply to buyers of MFDB too?

Ray

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #311 on: March 24, 2018, 10:02:58 am »

Does that apply to buyers of MFDB too?

No. Cameras are useful tools. MFDB cameras tend to have better SNR and higher resolution. $100,000 watches do not tell time more accurately, or more easily, or more conveniently. They're a pure waste of resources (ie. money).
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #312 on: March 24, 2018, 10:13:50 am »

No. Cameras are useful tools. MFDB cameras tend to have better SNR and higher resolution. $100,000 watches do not tell time more accurately, or more easily, or more conveniently. They're a pure waste of resources (ie. money).

Oh, but they do (tell time more accurately, at least measured against their peers - mechanical ones). Besides, there is a beauty in engineering, just like with Leicas. Or cars. Today's smartphone pics are for all practical purposes indistinguishable from MFDB. And yet, there are people who would appreciate the difference. Otherwise, we would be all driving one or two car models, wearing one or two types of watches, etc. Just like in Soviet Union.

Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #313 on: March 24, 2018, 10:18:43 am »

The most efficient use of resources would, at a stroke, close dowm LuLa, Facebook, Twitter, all of the useless channels via which people show their pets, their babies, their breakfast, their sex bits, their lunch, their coffee and perhaps, if still awake, their dinner. And of course, all private websites, being nothing but a massage of the personal ego, would be closed immediately.

Why? Consider the fuel used to create and drive all that electricity and data storage and frequent distribution of said data... apart from the production of all that driver/storage energy, think of the heat that it creates and the further energy consumed cooling it all down again.

Rob

degrub

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #314 on: March 24, 2018, 10:58:41 am »

hmm...A return to the pastoral life may happen eventually. But not with our current population size.
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Ray

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #315 on: March 25, 2018, 06:53:29 am »

Oh, but they do (tell time more accurately, at least measured against their peers - mechanical ones).

What nonsense. Who buys mechanical watches nowadays, except as antiques. My own watch is a Slazenger which I bought about 10 years ago in Thailand for about $50. I never change the time because I can't be bothered reminding myself how to do it. I have too many camera adjustments to attend to.  ;D

After 10 years and one change of battery, the time is still accurate within a minute. The watch also has an automatic adjustment for leap years so the date is always accurate. Attached is a picture of it. As you can see, the excellent resolution of my camera has revealed a bit of dirt, which probably got there because I'm not in the habit of swimming to 100 meter depths.  ;D

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Besides, there is a beauty in engineering, just like with Leicas. Or cars.
Of course there is. That's a side feature or bonus. The main purpose is functionality.

Quote
Today's smartphone pics are for all practical purposes indistinguishable from MFDB.
And yet, there are people who would appreciate the difference. Otherwise, we would be all driving one or two car models, wearing one or two types of watches, etc. Just like in Soviet Union.

Not at all. We succeed as individuals, tribes and nations, due to our ability to design and/or use the best tool for the job. The smartphone is an extremely useful tool because of its light weight, convenience of use, and connection with a world-wide network of communication. For vane people who are mostly interested in taking photos of themselves, or the food they are about to eat, it's an ideal photographic tool.

For those who are interested in photographing distant wildlife and birds, it's a piss-awful tool. The MFDB, as I understand, is a better tool for the production of realistically sharp and clean shots for huge billboards, or huge prints covering, say, an entire wall in your home, and the APS-C format with long telephoto lens would be better for taking detailed shots of craters on the moon. But you know that already, don't you, Slobodan?  ;)

We should also not discount the fact that photographers who already own thousands of dollars worth of MF film cameras and lenses would find the cost of a digital back justified, to enable them to continue using their high quality film equipment in the digital era. There's a practical purpose involved.

Have I succeeding in 'Trumping' your inane arguments, Slobodan?  ;D


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JoeKitchen

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #316 on: March 25, 2018, 07:52:11 am »

I have to say, John, that you have completely missed my point about efficient use of resources. I'm surprised, but never mind. I understand that not everyone is as smart as me.  ;D

The fundamental basis of all wealth and prosperity is energy, in combination with the innovative and efficient uses of that energy.
The forms of energy I'm referring to are coal, oil, gas, solar, windmill, hydro, and most importantly, food, and so on.

The distribution of that energy is expressed in terms of money. For example, lets compare a car factory in America with a car factory in China. Let's assume that the sophistication of the production technology is the same, and let's assume that the energy costs, such as electricity to operate the mechanization and robots, are the same.

Let's inquire why the Chinese cars could be cheaper. They are cheaper because China has produced cars using less energy, that is, in a more efficient way. How have they used less energy? Answer, by apportioning less energy to the human workers in the car factory. They pay them lower wages. Money directly equates to energy.

The higher paid American worker uses more energy. If he's sensible, he uses that energy efficiently. He drives to work in a basic and practical car. The Chinese worker, equally sensible, might not be able to afford a car. He cycles to work on his bicycle. He uses less energy. The energy he uses is equivalent to a small amount of food.

People who manufacture $100,000 watches get paid wages, of course. If they are sensible, they'll use those wages in a productive manner, to buy a house, clothes, car, food, and support their children. However, the point you have missed is the lack of any productive nature and usefulness of the final product, the expensive watch.

The Roman soldier who spends his days picking up pebbles from the beach, then placing them back again, also gets paid a useful wage that helps him to support his family, if he has one. But don't you see, if the Roman soldiers were instructed to help the villagers to build dam walls and improve their infrastructure, that would be a more efficient and productive use of their time?

People who spend huge sums of money (energy) on useless products, such as fancy watches, are plain idiots.
All the problems we have in the world, are due to too many idiots and nutcases having too much influence. Sorry to be so blunt, but those are the facts, in my very humble opinion, of course.  ;)

This argument is too simplistic to be taken seriously and leaves out a lot of other factors.  The idea that money is directly represent by energy, and the amount of energy one can buy with it, is false. 

Money is the byproduct of interest created by investments, and those investments do not necessarily involve energy, or only energy.  And since money is created, it is not finite, unlike energy. 

Furthermore, the idea that the variation of prices between Chinese goods and USA ones is based solely on the cost of energy does not make sense.  Although China may be better at using energy efficiently, or vis versa, the base cost of energy is each country is similar.  We live in a global economy and energy sources, that are mobile such as fossil fuels, goes to the highest bidder. 

The differences in cost between the two Countries have many more factors, much of which can be attributed to the cost of living in each country and how much one thinks he should get.  (Branding and brand value is another.)  This is not just attributed to energy, but an overall mentality in those countries. 

A great example of this would be looking at farm workers in the USA.  Why are so many Mexican immigrants?  Because they will take less then an American worker.  Why is this; is it because the American uses more energy to do the same job?  No, it is because Americans feel they deserve more.   

Also, your example of high end watches and products of similar stature, and restricting their purchase, leaves out one very important point, that innovation often is first introduced at the high end.  By restricting the wealthy's ability to purchase such objects will greatly reduce innovation and rob the future generations (when the cost of such innovations come down) the ability to benefit from those innovations. 

Now you may argue that any innovations brought fourth of the making of watches would not be of interest, but this would ignore the history of innovations.  It is not uncommon for an innovation being developed in some mundane industry and then being applied elsewhere only for it to change the world.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 09:56:04 am by JoeKitchen »
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Ray

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #317 on: March 25, 2018, 08:54:45 pm »

This argument is too simplistic to be taken seriously and leaves out a lot of other factors.  The idea that money is directly represent by energy, and the amount of energy one can buy with it, is false. 

Money is the byproduct of interest created by investments, and those investments do not necessarily involve energy, or only energy.  And since money is created, it is not finite, unlike energy. 

Yes, it is sometimes false. When money is no longer represented by energy supplies, we have an economic collapse and the financial system has to be readjusted. Can you think of a single activity in a modern society that does not require energy? Can you think of a single use of money, that is, the practical application of money to purchase something, that does not involve energy?

Consider the most basic example of a person walking down the street. How does he get the energy to walk? From the food he eats, of course. In a modern society, food requires energy to produce; energy to build the tractors; energy to create the fertilizers; gasoline to fuel the farm machinery; trucks and fuel to transport the harvest to the market; electricity to run the refrigerators that store the food; and so on.

Of course, it's even more complex than that, because at each stage of the production and distribution of the food, there are workers involved who are paid money, or wages, and the energy supplies related to the expenditure of those wages are a part of the total amount of energy required to produce the food, which brings us to the following point.

Quote
Furthermore, the idea that the variation of prices between Chinese goods and USA ones is based solely on the cost of energy does not make sense. Although China may be better at using energy efficiently, or vis versa, the base cost of energy is each country is similar. We live in a global economy and energy sources, that are mobile such as fossil fuels, goes to the highest bidder.

You seem to have missed the point that the wages paid to the workers involved in any manufacturing process are a part of the total cost of production. A factory in China which uses the same machinery as an equivalent factory in the US, and has access to fuel and electricity at the same cost, can only produce the manufactured product more efficiently if its workers are more efficient.
There are two basic ways in which the Chinese worker can be more efficient. He can work more competently, make fewer errors, be quicker on his feet, and accomplish more; or he can do the same work with equal competence but with an expenditure of less energy, that is, he works for lower wages in real terms, taking the cost of living into consideration. Got it?  ;)

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Also, your example of high end watches and products of similar stature, and restricting their purchase, leaves out one very important point, that innovation often is first introduced at the high end. By restricting the wealthy's ability to purchase such objects will greatly reduce innovation and rob the future generations (when the cost of such innovations come down) the ability to benefit from those innovations.

No. I'm not by any means against innovation. I'm making a distinction between useful, or potentially useful products, and products which serve little purpose, except to flatter the vanity and ego of wealthy people who don't have the nous, the intelligence, the empathy and humanity, to use their resources more constructively for the betterment of mankind.

I recall around 20 years ago or more, the first digital cameras were ridiculously expensive, but it was clear they were a big step forward in at least 'potential' efficiency. The cumbersome and inefficient process of manufacturing and developing film had been removed.

My example of the ridiculously expensive watches that have got the deputy prime Minister of Thailand into trouble, is not an example of innovative technology. The reason such watches are so ridiculously expensive, is not because they allow the wearer to communicate with astronauts on the moon, for example, or have some other completely new and useful feature like the first digital cameras.

They are expensive for purposes of exclusivity. When a person wears a Richard Mille watch, assembled in a sapphire crystal case, for example, which costs more than most people spend on their homes (actual price $1,650,000), the wearer is simply sending a symbolic message to everyone who witnesses him wearing the expensive watch, that he is such a wealthy and successful and smart person that he belongs to an exclusive club and can afford to spend over a million dollars on a mere watch.

Such behaviour is disgraceful in my view.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #318 on: March 25, 2018, 09:24:24 pm »

... Have I succeeding in 'Trumping' your inane arguments, Slobodan?  ;D

No, but you did manage to drown me in your verbose deluge ;)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 09:48:21 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Ray

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #319 on: March 25, 2018, 09:45:24 pm »

No, but you did manage to drown me in the your verbose deluge ;)

Oops! Sorry! I thought I was being very precise, succinct and rational, as usual.  ;D
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