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Author Topic: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"  (Read 53040 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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"The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« on: March 10, 2018, 05:25:45 pm »

http://quillette.com/2018/03/10/psychology-progressive-hostility/

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when a progressive friend says something with which I disagree or that I know to be incorrect, I’m hesitant to point it out. This hesitancy is a consequence of the different treatment one tends to receive from those on the Right and Left when expressing a difference of opinion.

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Outbursts of emotional hostility from progressive activists – now described as Social Justice Warriors or SJWs – have come to be known as getting ‘triggered.’ This term originally applied to sufferers of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, but activists have adopted it to describe the anxiety and discomfort they experience when they are exposed to views with which they disagree. “Fuck free speech!” one group of social justice advocates recently told Vice Media, as if this justified the growing belief among university students that conservatives should be prevented from speaking on college campuses.

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...conservatives don’t tend to express the same emotional hostility as the Left; a deeper grasp of the world’s complexity has the effect of encouraging intellectual humility. The conservative hears the progressive’s latest demands and says, “I can see how you might come to that conclusion, but I think you’ve overlooked the following…” In contrast, the progressive hears the conservative and thinks, “I have no idea why you would believe that. You’re probably a racist.”

Schewe

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 06:11:03 pm »

...conservatives don’t tend to express the same emotional hostility as the Left; a deeper grasp of the world’s complexity has the effect of encouraging intellectual humility.

Sorry to hear about your dislocated shoulder (no doubt caused by patting yourself on the back so hard).
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2018, 08:09:19 pm »

I have no problem listening to a difference of opinion as long as it adds new information to their POV as opposed to repeated diatribes reworded (usually in one line sentences) to sound like it's new data but now delivered in a more condescending tone with a bit of humor thrown in that only comes across as dismissive ridicule.

This kind of poster only proves who is the least talented at debating a topic.
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Farmer

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2018, 10:18:44 pm »

A normally reasonable site with factual content that is right of centre, but this is a terrible article.  The author is unqualified in the field (completing a Bachelor of Arts) and hardly has enough life experience to discuss the "deeper grasp of the world's complexity".  In and of itself, of course, it's fine to have views and express them without specific qualification or even experience, but it's hardly the kind of piece you would then hold out as carrying much (if any) weight.  I could probably get a more substantial opinion down the pub.  Certainly it's well written - it's just lacking much in the way of substance.

The TLDR of his article?  When he disagrees with a like-minded person (politically speaking) it's a much easier discussion but when he disagrees with someone with a different political view it's a harder conversation.  Really?  Who ever would have thought that might be he case!  People who disagree with him are hostile and people who agree are nice.  What a revelation!

He picks a few random examples of behaviour from the two sides under discussion, without any statistical evidence or analysis, and in a rampant display of confirmation bias suggests that is proof of his hypothesis (a hypothesis which also amounts to "if you disagree with me you're both wrong and nasty").

My major concern here is that such articles are presented as being useful, accurate, or in any way valid.  What's more, for someone undertaking a degree you might suspect that he understand the value of a properly referenced article that carries supporting evidence and logical analysis - but apparently not.

I spent 2 hours this morning on a graded forum post for one of the subjects in my current master's degree, for just 500 words, because I have to be able to support my points with actual evidence and not just cherry picked anecdotes.

I can only hope that the level of political discussion will be based on a much higher quality of article than this in the future.

In basic and brief rebuttal that conservatives apparently are reasonable and logical, I'd look at the Tea Party, Brexit, many Trump-related things, and any number of extreme right groups who regularly engage in violence.

Here's the simple point - extremist views (those which insist that any other view cannot be correct by default and almost as a matter of principle) are problematic regardless of which side (or any direction - politics is far more complex than just a left and a right) they come from and typically lead to extreme commentary and actions.  There is no monopoly.  Combined with hyper-partisan politics which now exist in the US and, unfortunately, are rapidly becoming the norm and the majority, and you have no room for dialogue or discussion and an astonishing amount of nonsense.  What's scary is that people are prepared to believe things simply because they like the sound of it.
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Phil Brown

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 06:50:33 am »

I'm always suspicious when people toot their own (conservative) horn.  :o
In my view there are as many vicious social warriors on both sides as well as people with whom you can have a normal discussion on a difference of opinion.

For a different project I made a self portrait last week, but it can very well be used to show how I feel when participating in some of the discussions in the coffee corner a few month ago:


I actually found that when the coffee corner was closed for political debates I didn't really miss it and now that the door is cracked open again I've decided to stay away, mainly to protect my ears from the shouting on both sides. 

 
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pieter, aka pegelli

Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 07:07:09 am »

But aren't you forgetting that political threads are what they are, and that the CC is so much more, with potential limited only by the number of different subjects raised?

Rather than stay away, why not raise the game in new directions? Nobody is forcing you to participate in any specific thread you may find distasteful. If more interesting, involving threads are presented, then I am sure people would engage.

As with all these things, it's easier to complain than offer a better alternative.

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 07:30:56 am »

But aren't you forgetting that political threads are what they are, and that the CC is so much more, with potential limited only by the number of different subjects raised?

Rather than stay away, why not raise the game in new directions? Nobody is forcing you to participate in any specific thread you may find distasteful. If more interesting, involving threads are presented, then I am sure people would engage.

As with all these things, it's easier to complain than offer a better alternative.
Rob, I'm not complaining. Where did you get that impression?

Firstly I'm presenting an alternate view to Slobodan's OP, I see no problem with that.
Secondly, given my experience from the past, I have concluded that I'd rather spend my time on other things then political debates in the coffee corner.
Everybody makes their own choices and this is the one I made. It's in no way a judgement (or complaining about) of how others choose to spend their time.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 10:40:23 am »

Rob, I'm not complaining. Where did you get that impression?

Firstly I'm presenting an alternate view to Slobodan's OP, I see no problem with that.
Secondly, given my experience from the past, I have concluded that I'd rather spend my time on other things then political debates in the coffee corner.
Everybody makes their own choices and this is the one I made. It's in no way a judgement (or complaining about) of how others choose to spend their time.

Simply from your intention to abandon the CC because of politics; there's more to it (the CC) than politics.

Your decisions are your decisions to make, but it seems a bit extreme to take yourself away from a zone just because of one possible type of thread within it.

I have no problem at all with you giving a view that doesn't match Slobodan's; that's what makes debate debate, as his own strapline declares.

Rob

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 11:33:44 am »

Simply from your intention to abandon the CC because of politics; there's more to it (the CC) than politics.
I'm not staying away from the CC in total, just from the political debates there.
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pieter, aka pegelli

JoeKitchen

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 12:47:03 pm »

A normally reasonable site with factual content that is right of centre, but this is a terrible article.  The author is unqualified in the field (completing a Bachelor of Arts) and hardly has enough life experience to discuss the "deeper grasp of the world's complexity".  In and of itself, of course, it's fine to have views and express them without specific qualification or even experience, but it's hardly the kind of piece you would then hold out as carrying much (if any) weight.  I could probably get a more substantial opinion down the pub.  Certainly it's well written - it's just lacking much in the way of substance.


Although I am not going to disagree with the fact that the article could be bias, the statement above is exactly the kind of rhetoric of the elitist that gets under the skin of normal people. 

In the 1890s a few teams of engineers and scientists with near unlimited funding and vast experience were all trying to figure out flight.  However, two young high school only educated brothers who took up hang gliding as a hobby with only funding from their bicycle shop's profits figured it out. 

Your statement flies in the face of history, and not only with this example, but plenty of others. 

If you're going to disagree with something, provide reasons, not some ad hominem argument about age and experience. 

Other people who have changed the world with only, at most, Bachelor degrees: Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, etc. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 12:54:04 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Farmer

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 02:30:42 pm »

Although I am not going to disagree with the fact that the article could be bias, the statement above is exactly the kind of rhetoric of the elitist that gets under the skin of normal people. 

In the 1890s a few teams of engineers and scientists with near unlimited funding and vast experience were all trying to figure out flight.  However, two young high school only educated brothers who took up hang gliding as a hobby with only funding from their bicycle shop's profits figured it out. 

Your statement flies in the face of history, and not only with this example, but plenty of others. 

If you're going to disagree with something, provide reasons, not some ad hominem argument about age and experience. 

Other people who have changed the world with only, at most, Bachelor degrees: Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, etc.

I went on to say, "of course, it's fine to have views and express them without specific qualification or even experience".  But the author himself is the one who suggested that progressives lack the conservatives "deeper grasp of the world's complexity" - you'll note I put that in quotes.  My comment was specifically addressing the unreasonable assertion of the author by presenting a valid reason why they would most likely not be a position to possess that very quality in great degrees.  I went on with evidence and commentary, but you've dismissed it out of hand and out of context.  That's somewhat ironic, no?

I'm far from elitist and very much normal and I'm pretty middle of the road overall, but generally would be considered fiscally conservative and socially progressive, but not much in either direction.  On specific issues or topics, of course, that can and does vary.  The point, though, is that I'm hardly what you would label as a liberal/progressive overall.

This author, a young Uni student in Queensland, seems very well spoken (written) and intelligent and I have no doubt he is.  But he's hardly in a position to suggest to anyone else that they don't have a deeper grasp of the world's complexity given his distinct lack of experience, at least to the point where others are holding his point up as authoritative.  Even more so given the article provides nothing more than a couple of anecdotes in support of its argument.

And, yes, the Wright brothers figured out flight.  Despite your claim, the vast majority of such advances are the exception, rather than the norm, and are typically the result of a specific field of invention rather than an overall doctrine or philosophy which typically take more time and experience to develop by their very nature.  Again, I conceded immediately that anyone can have a view and they could make valid points, but this article was just hot air, personal anecdote, and a heap of confirmation bias.  Given that the site in question is normally quite factual and only moderately right sided (as opposed to being extreme, an issue I discussed in my post), it was disappointing to find what really amounts to a right-wing puff piece.

Given I did raise many more points than just this, would you care to comment on them or will you leave it with an incorrect assertion of ad hominem on my part?
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Phil Brown

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 02:52:30 pm »

... this is a terrible article.  The author is unqualified in the field (completing a Bachelor of Arts) ...

Be wary of criticising an article because of the supposed qualifications of the author. My undergraduate degree, for example, is a Bachelor of Arts; it happens to be in a combination of medical sciences and computer science.

Jeremy
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 03:07:29 pm »

"I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me"

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SEY91kB2GIIJ:https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

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... a student accusing me not of saying something too ideologically extreme — be it communism or racism or whatever — but of not being sensitive enough toward his feelings, of some simple act of indelicacy that's considered tantamount to physical assault... "Emotional discomfort is [now] regarded as equivalent to material injury, and all injuries have to be remediated." Hurting a student's feelings, even in the course of instruction that is absolutely appropriate and respectful, can now get a teacher into serious trouble.

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Commentators on the left and right have recently criticized the sensitivity and paranoia of today's college students. They worry about the stifling of free speech, the implementation of unenforceable conduct codes, and a general hostility against opinions and viewpoints that could cause students so much as a hint of discomfort.

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... adoption of a totalizing, simplistic, unworkable, and ultimately stifling conception of social justice. The simplicity and absolutism of this conception has combined with the precarity of academic jobs to create higher ed's current climate of fear, a heavily policed discourse of semantic sensitivity in which safety and comfort have become the ends and the means of the college experience.

Bob J

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 03:09:07 pm »

The article does not coincide with my own experience.

Free speech is a basic human right as is equality of opportunity: but we have further to travel on equality than we do on free speech. There is also a need to remember that today's conservative would probably have been viewed as a dangerous radical 100 years ago. Also bear in mind that people who appear very left wing in certain parts of the world may well be regarded as quite centrist elsewhere ( ie in Europe).

Progress is good (as is conservation). We need to make sure that our progressive or conservative impulses are not founded in self interest, but rather in fairness. I am content for my great great grandchildren to look back at my generation and think how narrow and conservative we were although we thought ourselves to be socially minded and progressive.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2018, 04:55:29 pm »

I went on to say, "of course, it's fine to have views and express them without specific qualification or even experience".  But the author himself is the one who suggested that progressives lack the conservatives "deeper grasp of the world's complexity" - you'll note I put that in quotes.  My comment was specifically addressing the unreasonable assertion of the author by presenting a valid reason why they would most likely not be a position to possess that very quality in great degrees.  I went on with evidence and commentary, but you've dismissed it out of hand and out of context.  That's somewhat ironic, no?

I'm far from elitist and very much normal and I'm pretty middle of the road overall, but generally would be considered fiscally conservative and socially progressive, but not much in either direction.  On specific issues or topics, of course, that can and does vary.  The point, though, is that I'm hardly what you would label as a liberal/progressive overall.

This author, a young Uni student in Queensland, seems very well spoken (written) and intelligent and I have no doubt he is.  But he's hardly in a position to suggest to anyone else that they don't have a deeper grasp of the world's complexity given his distinct lack of experience, at least to the point where others are holding his point up as authoritative.  Even more so given the article provides nothing more than a couple of anecdotes in support of its argument.

And, yes, the Wright brothers figured out flight.  Despite your claim, the vast majority of such advances are the exception, rather than the norm, and are typically the result of a specific field of invention rather than an overall doctrine or philosophy which typically take more time and experience to develop by their very nature.  Again, I conceded immediately that anyone can have a view and they could make valid points, but this article was just hot air, personal anecdote, and a heap of confirmation bias.  Given that the site in question is normally quite factual and only moderately right sided (as opposed to being extreme, an issue I discussed in my post), it was disappointing to find what really amounts to a right-wing puff piece.

Given I did raise many more points than just this, would you care to comment on them or will you leave it with an incorrect assertion of ad hominem on my part?

I wrote a rather quick response and decided to delete it and write something a little more thought out. 

In regards to what is now in bold, I never made the claim all, or even suggested the majority of, discoveries came from those without advanced degrees.  I was merely providing a counter example to your ad hominem attack on the author which you suggested that since he did not have experience nor advanced degrees, his argument is less valid. 

In logic and reason, you only need provide one counter example to disprove a statement.  I provided my example, disproving your statement. 

Furthermore, your first paragraph in your original statement was an ad hominem argument.  Instead of beginning by providing counter arguments to the article, you brought up a specific quality of the author to use against the argument, which is an ad hominem attack by definition.  Yours may lack the audacity of calling someone a racist or something else as offensive, but it still is an ad hominem argument.  And with this response, it appears you are doubling down on it. 

Now, you may have provided legitimate counters to the article afterwards, but you kind of destroyed the credibility of those counters since you started off with a fallacy. 

Insofar as me providing reasons as to why I may agree with the article or your counters, I did not read the article.  To be honest, I could care less one way or the other, I was just pointing out the fallacy of your first paragraph. 

In English we have a proverb that "wisdom comes with age."  It doesn't.  The Germans more correctly say that "we gain intelligence from our successes and wisdom from our failures ...", and I like to add, "but only if we choose to learn from them."  Although experience may have a lot to do with wisdom, it does not necessarily mean you gain any, especially if you choose to ignore your failures. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 05:03:35 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Farmer

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2018, 05:40:48 pm »

Be wary of criticising an article because of the supposed qualifications of the author. My undergraduate degree, for example, is a Bachelor of Arts; it happens to be in a combination of medical sciences and computer science.

But that's not all I did, was it?  I detailed many areas.  The particular author, is part way through a BA unrelated to the discussion he introduced.  As I said, he speaks (writes) well, but the content is not there.  He (the author) made claims about deeper understanding, so it's appropriate to check the basis upon which he might have said depth of knowledge or understanding.  It was a sorely lacking return.

That, in and of itself, doesn't make him wrong and I didn't claim that.  As a rebuttal of his claim, it was valid to check his experience and comment on it, among other things.  Interestingly, he has accepted various criticisms of the article well, and should be commended for that and hopefully will improve as he continues to write (which he has said he intends to do).
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Phil Brown

Farmer

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2018, 05:45:10 pm »

Quite simply, Joe, it wasn't an ad hominem.  The author claimed special knowledge (a deeper understanding), so checking the basis of that claim, among other points, is entirely valid and reasonable.  It's not attacking him as a person - it's disputing his claim of depth of knowledge based on the available facts of his experience and expertise.

An ad hominem would have been "he's a right winger and therefore is wrong".  Instead, what I essentially said was, "he claims to have a depth of knowledge but checking his credentials doesn't support that claim, so that's not a good start to the basis of the article".  Then I went on to discuss other factors as to why I thought he article was lacking whilst specifically acknowledging that he's entitled to any view he wants.

If he hadn't claimed to be part of a group with special knowledge it wouldn't have been relevant.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2018, 07:05:59 pm »

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A whole raft of brilliant philosophers and Nobel Prize-winning economists lean to the right. The problem is that these people tend to go into business or enter academic fields like engineering, economics, and mathematics. They have therefore surrendered the humanities and what philosopher Roger Scruton has called the ‘fake fields’ of gender and ethnic studies to their political opponents on the Left, who relish their role as the unchallenged shapers of student minds. According to a 2005 survey3 conducted in the United States, there was only one Republican sociology professor in the humanities for every 40 Democrat professors...

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... arguments made by Thomas Sowell in A Conflict of Visions and Steven Pinker in The Blank Slate. Both Sowell and Pinker contend that conservatives see an unfortunate world of moral trade-offs in which every moral judgment comes with costs that must be properly balanced. Progressives, on the other hand, seem to be blind to, or in denial about, these trade-offs, whether economic and social; theirs is a utopian or unconstrained vision, in which every moral grievance must be immediately extinguished until we have perfected society. This is why conservatives don’t tend to express the same emotional hostility as the Left; a deeper grasp of the world’s complexity has the effect of encouraging intellectual humility.



Bob J

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2018, 09:15:38 pm »

One might phrase it slightly differently, stating that the progressive believes that injustice needs to be challenged, and that the world of tomorrow should be better than today, while conservatives knowledge of what correcting injustices will cost them personally makes them want the world of tomorrow to be the same as today (or maybe even rolled back 20 years).

While a progressive might be angry at an injustice, there are plenty of conservatives who manage to get angry over proposed gun controls or proposals to reduce pollution; people will always find it easier to justify anger when it is more closely aligned to their own views - I think this is why the author of the article finds those to the left of him to be more vehement..
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Farmer

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2018, 11:47:14 pm »

^^ This.  And it works both ways, of course.

It's ironic that I was accused of ad hominem attacks when the original article was nothing more than "the other side are all mentally challenged".
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Phil Brown
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