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Author Topic: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve  (Read 4148 times)

MichaelEzra

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Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« on: February 25, 2018, 10:05:20 AM »

What would be the best way to use monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve to get accurate color-managed preview?
LUT made from ICC?
Any other options?
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Dave Rosser

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2018, 10:22:52 AM »

I looked into this problem when I was playing with Resolve.  I was advised to get a separate display (depending where I wanted to see my final ourput this could be a small TV) driven by a separate display card to monitor how the final image would look on target output device.  Well as I was only dabling in video this seemed an unnecessary expense so I switched my NEC multisync monitor to emulate a REC709 which is the HD telivision standard. However REC709 is similar to sRGB so for most purposes using Resolve simply setting your monitor to sRGB will be adequate.
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digitaldog

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2018, 12:29:44 PM »

Don't know that product under question but the first question would be, is it ICC aware? Does it recognize the ICC display profile and the numbers used in the data to produce a color managed preview? If not, then Dave's solution using a color reference display system that can target REC709 (among other calibration references) would be the next solution. 
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smthopr

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2018, 02:47:06 PM »

Don't know that product under question but the first question would be, is it ICC aware? Does it recognize the ICC display profile and the numbers used in the data to produce a color managed preview? If not, then Dave's solution using a color reference display system that can target REC709 (among other calibration references) would be the next solution.

In general, Davinci Resolve is not ICC profile aware.  The standard practice is to use a Blackmagic video output card (blackmagic design owns Davinici) to a calibrated display.  Most often this is done using a display that stores a 3dLUT for calibration.  The Resolve software can also store the 3dLUT, or a LUT box can be added between the video card and Resolve.  Using the blackmagic video card avoids any signal changes that might be present through the operating system/color management.  And, selling these cards is how Blackmagic gives away Resolve for free!

On a Mac, there is a checkbox in settings to use the system icc profile for viewing, but I've experimented with this and find it does not work correctly.  So, if you're using a Mac, uncheck this setting!

The real issue here is that many or most displays are now wide gamut displays.  But, standard video is not.  A wide gamut icc profiled computer display will still be wide gamut, and will not show REC709 correctly.  For example, iOne display software can not limit the gamut of the display.

If one insists on avoiding expenses and using a computer display I would try one of these options:

1. In your monitor hardware controls, set the display to sRGB or REC709 (if it has that) and then create your .icc profile using that display setting.  It should, theoretically limit your display to REC709 primaries.  This advice is really for Macs only.  And only when looking at the image on the GUI display.  No decklink card involved.

2. Get a decklink output card.  The "mini monitor" model is about $150.  There is one for thunderbolt and one for PCI slot (if using a a non-laptop).  And then also, use a display such as the NEC or EIZO that can store the display calibration in the display itself.  First, you'll need to connect the display to the computer video card and run the profiling software with a probe and set the primary colors to REC709.  This correction will now be stored in the display.  Then, connect from your mini monitor device to the display using HDMI and using the same calibration.  This will get one "in the ball park".

3. If you want to get more deeply into this, but on the cheap...
Get an iOne Display probe and use DisplayCal (open source) software to create a 3D LUT.  This software will work through Resolve with or without a decklink card.  Then, in Resolve settings choose the 3D LUT for display output or GUI viewer output (depending on which display/video card your using).  This software is not so easy to get the hang of, so be prepared for a bit of trial and error.  It has a GUI interface (not command line), but is still confusing and the instructions can be confusing as well.  After you've mastered this, get a iOne spectro to measure your display's color, create an "offset" for the iOne Display Pro puck and you will have a real professional calibration.

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MichaelEzra

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2018, 03:54:38 PM »

Thank you for such quick and informative responses!

Bruce Alan,

I am using NEC 2690 WUXi wide gamut monitor with Nvidia graphics card on Windows 10.
I can calibrate the display with eye one probe to sRGB target (using Spectraview II) and use that calibration for video editing sessions.

Do you think this is a better option rather than using monitor calibration with a full gamut and using monitor LUT in Resolve?

Thanks,
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fredjeang2

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2018, 06:17:08 PM »

In general, Davinci Resolve is not ICC profile aware.  The standard practice is to use a Blackmagic video output card (blackmagic design owns Davinici) to a calibrated display.  Most often this is done using a display that stores a 3dLUT for calibration.  The Resolve software can also store the 3dLUT, or a LUT box can be added between the video card and Resolve.  Using the blackmagic video card avoids any signal changes that might be present through the operating system/color management.  And, selling these cards is how Blackmagic gives away Resolve for free!

On a Mac, there is a checkbox in settings to use the system icc profile for viewing, but I've experimented with this and find it does not work correctly.  So, if you're using a Mac, uncheck this setting!

The real issue here is that many or most displays are now wide gamut displays.  But, standard video is not.  A wide gamut icc profiled computer display will still be wide gamut, and will not show REC709 correctly.  For example, iOne display software can not limit the gamut of the display.

If one insists on avoiding expenses and using a computer display I would try one of these options:

1. In your monitor hardware controls, set the display to sRGB or REC709 (if it has that) and then create your .icc profile using that display setting.  It should, theoretically limit your display to REC709 primaries.  This advice is really for Macs only.  And only when looking at the image on the GUI display.  No decklink card involved.

2. Get a decklink output card.  The "mini monitor" model is about $150.  There is one for thunderbolt and one for PCI slot (if using a a non-laptop).  And then also, use a display such as the NEC or EIZO that can store the display calibration in the display itself.  First, you'll need to connect the display to the computer video card and run the profiling software with a probe and set the primary colors to REC709.  This correction will now be stored in the display.  Then, connect from your mini monitor device to the display using HDMI and using the same calibration.  This will get one "in the ball park".

3. If you want to get more deeply into this, but on the cheap...
Get an iOne Display probe and use DisplayCal (open source) software to create a 3D LUT.  This software will work through Resolve with or without a decklink card.  Then, in Resolve settings choose the 3D LUT for display output or GUI viewer output (depending on which display/video card your using).  This software is not so easy to get the hang of, so be prepared for a bit of trial and error.  It has a GUI interface (not command line), but is still confusing and the instructions can be confusing as well.  After you've mastered this, get a iOne spectro to measure your display's color, create an "offset" for the iOne Display Pro puck and you will have a real professional calibration.
Mother of god!
How much money a tech would charge to do it for you?
I want to be miles away from anything that has to do with those
Sort of technosyncracies displays.
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smthopr

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2018, 07:45:10 PM »

Thank you for such quick and informative responses!

Bruce Alan,

I am using NEC 2690 WUXi wide gamut monitor with Nvidia graphics card on Windows 10.
I can calibrate the display with eye one probe to sRGB target (using Spectraview II) and use that calibration for video editing sessions.

Do you think this is a better option rather than using monitor calibration with a full gamut and using monitor LUT in Resolve?

Thanks,

If you go this route, I would still get the decklink card or "mini-monitor" and use the HDMI to your display after you've calibrated it to sRGB primaries(sRGB and REC709 primaries are the same).  When you do the calibration, set it to gamma 2.2 instead of sRGB gamma if Spectraview allows that.

The advantage of using the decklink card/mini monitor is that you can have a full screen display of your video, but you will need a 2nd (cheap) display for the GUI.  Resolve doesn't allow full screen video and access to the controls when using just the GUI display.

I'm using a 3D LUT in Resolve that I created with the DisplayCal software in conjunction with Resolve.  The trick here is selecting the proper colorimeter offeset in the DisplayCal software.  You might find though, that using the probe supplied by NEC with their software could be more accurate, unless... you have a spectro to create an offest measured from your particular display.  I have found that just using the iOne Pro Display probe with the EIZO ColorNavigator software is close, but has a little "red" push which leads to slightly desaturated final product.  Making the 3D LUT with the spectro offset measured from my display fixed the issue, but as I mentioned in my post, there is quite the learning curve using DisplayCal.  You can buy LightSpace software which is better and would have support from the company.  But it's kind of expensive.
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smthopr

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2018, 07:47:13 PM »

Mother of god!
How much money a tech would charge to do it for you?
I want to be miles away from anything that has to do with those
Sort of technosyncracies displays.

In LA a professional calibration would cost from $350 - $500...
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fredjeang2

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2018, 10:32:05 PM »

In LA a professional calibration would cost from $350 - $500...
Thanks Bruce.
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MichaelEzra

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2018, 08:28:23 AM »

Options, options..:))
I happen to have a second monitor (connected to the same video card) which is sRGB...
Currently it is connected using DVI, should have HDMI as well.
I wonder if I could simply utilize it for a full screen video for resolve, or would I have to get the decklink card?
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smthopr

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2018, 11:13:11 AM »

Options, options..:))
I happen to have a second monitor (connected to the same video card) which is sRGB...
Currently it is connected using DVI, should have HDMI as well.
I wonder if I could simply utilize it for a full screen video for resolve, or would I have to get the decklink card?
michael, you need the decklink device. It's time for you to read the manual :)
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MichaelEzra

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2018, 11:24:22 AM »

yeah.. I just did!:)))
Page 667 "Limitations When Grading With the Viewer on a Computer Display"
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fredjeang2

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2018, 12:14:54 PM »

yeah.. I just did!:)))
Page 667 "Limitations When Grading With the Viewer on a Computer Display"
Michael, you’re an artist. An artist is rarely a good tech engineer and vice versa, a part of some execptions.

Bruce is an old fox (but young!!) profesional, knowledgable and often brings precious help in this forum on complex topics. But as you can see, solving those things are not so easy, just like many other aspects of motion imagery and one can easily sink into a tech spiral without the required background. It means, amateur solutions and lot of time consumed.
I learned it the hard way when I tried to embrasse on my own too many aspects (to be more independant) instead of directing the energy on what I really like and capable. If it can work in still photography to some extend, in motion it does not.

Many editors have assistants that will do the dirty work for them. If they had to deal with gamma sagas, format conversions, backups, relinking and so on...they would not edit but spend their time in fixing problems they are not competent to. If they were, they would not become proper editors.

I know a few photographers here with an international trajectory, big names. People who earn a lot of money doing big editos. You'd be surprised how limited are their knowledge of image engineering. Way less than many people in this forum. Now...they bloody know how to lite and shoot. They know how to deal with people and talents. They know zero about gamma monitors, wide gammuteries and all those idiocies.
Peter Lindberh does NOT retouch anything, does not use MUAs nor stylists. He shoots!
What's in his camera card is what is printed in editorial.

It is sometimes way more profitable to hire a tech (Bruce gave a price idea), that will cost less than deckstuffs (frankly, all those things are extremely annoying, boring and time consumming).

My point is: loose your time if you want trying to play with gadgets to get your monitor calibrated, and it will cost you weeks...or...center your time and energy in doing what you know and love best, and leave the tech stuff to the tech dudes, the fx to the mac dudes etc...

Ps: it's good that some took the time to give the page number  ;D

« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 12:27:09 PM by fredjeang2 »
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MichaelEzra

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2018, 12:32:28 PM »

Fred, I am guilty in over 18 years of engineering in IT and education in physics, so I easily fall into the attraction of figuring things out:)
In this case though I may have a workaround option - a black and white video on sRGB and forget the color calibration.

But you are right, what I must be doing instead is getting the book on sculptural nudes done, finally, not the monitor calibration:)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 01:10:06 PM by MichaelEzra »
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smthopr

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2018, 11:53:26 AM »

Michael,

OK, 18 years of figuring it out is good. Now Everybody, every production house has a different way of post processing, gamma, luts, color and delivery.

I have a 5,1 tricked out with an I/o brox to a broadcast monitor, that cost way more than any monitor should cost.

I took a clip and colored it and processed it.  Then I put it into my reconfigured 15" mbp circu 2015 and plugged the monitor into the hdmi port.

Setting resolved to srgb and/or rec 709 made absolutely no difference to the eye, compared to a 5.1 and and i/o box.

But here's the point.  I shoot different cameras than you, build my on in camera luts and go to resolve.   Resolve is a huge learning curve but it's the best for the money. 

Anyway, the powerbook with no i/o box though the hdmi port completely matches the 5,1.     Don't know why, don't care, it looks good.  It matches the computer monitors, it matches the broadcast screen.  Why?  I don't care, it passes inspection, runs life goes on.

Test, test, test and don't believe the specs.

Now my 2015 powerbook shouldn't do anything I ask of it.  But the dealer who specializes in configuring computers said it was the fastest laptop and the last one Apple made that can be modified.  I tried it . . . bought two.

Maybe buy two more.

Yes read the manual, yes learn resolve, but remember, every machine camera to computer to output to view screen is different.

The only thing that matters is to make it look great and get to the final result.

IMO

BC

BC, the trouble here is how to know when your simple solution (MBP/HDMI out) is correct.  My 2013 MBP (non-wide gamut Retina display) when profiled and calibrated is very close to my "official/hero" calibrated REC709 display. If I had new, wide gamut, Retina on my MBP, this would not be the case.  It's just, that without a true calibrated display to compare it to, I wouldn't know it was close to correct!

Ironically, to make things simple with Resolve, one really needs the decklink device output (zero color management from the OS) to be sure of the signal.  So it kind of takes a lot of experience to know when the simple solution, direct output from the computer video card, is correct.  And... on windows machines, there is not true color management outside of applications like photoshop.  So, your approach will not work well with windows and Resolve.

And in the end, if one wants full screen playback in Resolve, one needs two displays, one for GUI and one from a decklink device to a (hopefully calibrated!) display.

My work is for cinema and needs to be delivered to spec.  I need a truly calibrated display, if only to reassure the producers that all is fine with their multi million dollar investment.  If one's needs are pretty much for the internet, I would just check the final result on an iPad or iPhone.  If it looks ok there, you shouldn't have any issues.  I even sometimes check my internet trailers at the electronics store on different phones to see that, on average, all is ok for most viewers.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »

If one's needs are pretty much for the internet, I would just check the final result on an iPad or iPhone.  If it looks ok there, you shouldn't have any issues.  I even sometimes check my internet trailers at the electronics store on different phones to see that, on average, all is ok for most viewers.
Exactly.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2018, 03:30:20 PM »

...  So it kind of takes a lot of experience to know when the simple solution, direct output from the computer video card, is correct.  And... on windows machines, there is not true color management outside of applications like photoshop.  So, your approach will not work well with windows and Resolve.
That is the point.
And that is why I think that if one does not have the tech background,
Dealing with those sort of things is IMO not the best idea.
Of course, some with a great dosis of obession, many hours,
Coffees and headaches
Could gain the experience required. But that is not ideal.
Digital motion imagery has some areas extremely technical, color included.
And it's getting more and more complicated.
And when lot of money is involved, there is no space any longuer for
Approximation but an affair of specialists.
It has to be collaborative.
One can not be good at everything. Impossible.
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MichaelEzra

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2018, 03:34:44 PM »

The only thing that matters is to make it look great and get to the final result.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that perfection in calibration in video production must matter only within a local pipeline - the moment you give out the footage for viewing - there is no control how it will be seen. Same with digital photos on internet. Most content is viewed on the phones. Phones are different, screen brightness is different, ambient setting - even more so. So what is left of the intended calibration? No one will ever see the footage the same as it was mastered, may be on the big screens, where it is strictly controlled I suspect.

For photography, even when I exhibit the original prints, they are almost never displayed in perfectly controlled lighting, so consistency is there in production but viewing relies on something in our brains that interprets, interpolates and compensates for the variable viewing conditions.

Still, I've got to know what I am looking at when editing:)
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fredjeang2

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2018, 04:25:08 PM »

The more I think about it, the more I feel that perfection in calibration in video production must matter only within a local pipeline - the moment you give out the footage for viewing - there is no control how it will be seen. Same with digital photos on internet. Most content is viewed on the phones. Phones are different, screen brightness is different, ambient setting - even more so. So what is left of the intended calibration? No one will ever see the footage the same as it was mastered, may be on the big screens, where it is strictly controlled I suspect.

For photography, even when I exhibit the original prints, they are almost never displayed in perfectly controlled lighting, so consistency is there in production but viewing relies on something in our brains that interprets, interpolates and compensates for the variable viewing conditions.

Still, I've got to know what I am looking at when editing:)
I think that the problem is when one comes from photography
Background and try to do motion with photographic parameters/budget
In mind.
It would work to some extend, but it will vanishes when one gains
More experience and realises that the excelence possible to do in stills
Becomes very fast extremely expensive, complex and time consuming.

Let's talk Resolve. Everybody work on it and try to be a colorist, right?
Some photographers manage to bake good looks for their work.
But if one crosses a line, goes deeper...then things get really nasty.
Everyone-is-a-colorist is a falacy.
You can go where the real colorists are: in liftgammagain forum
And you'll see conversations between active profesionals.
That is not a bloody joke.
Many people even with years in color are out of the game: "say what?!"
It's easy to figure out by yourself. Just enter the forums, know who is good and
Read the posts...good luck!
Same story if you frequent FX forums. Bags talking about bags...
Specialists talking their stuff.

Look, motion has become so highly technical that in big houses,
People are paied to do one task and not the others.
I talked to someone in Oceania who trained macdudes in one of the biggest
House. (I won't give the name here because it's sensitive).
The colorist does not do anything except coloring. Too complicated,
Too expensive for DIT solutions.
Highly collaborative environement using the same system. And
It's not Resolve.
It was already like that in pre-digital, just that digital boosted
Complexity even further.

So if you look for "perfection" in motion, with the medium and
Background of photography, you will be disapointed.
You have no choice. Or you have the cash, or you DIY,
And accept the inperfection and randomness.

Ommmmm
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 05:13:09 PM by fredjeang2 »
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smthopr

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Re: Monitor ICC with DaVinci Resolve
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2018, 07:23:35 PM »

I think that the problem is when one comes from photography
Background and try to do motion with photographic parameters/budget
In mind.
It would work to some extend, but it will vanishes when one gains
More experience and realises that the excelence possible to do in stills
Becomes very fast extremely expensive, complex and time consuming.

Let's talk Resolve. Everybody work on it and try to be a colorist, right?
Some photographers manage to bake good looks for their work.
But if one crosses a line, goes deeper...then things get really nasty.
Everyone-is-a-colorist is a falacy.
You can go where the real colorists are: in liftgammagain forum
And you'll see conversations between active profesionals.
That is not a bloody joke.
Many people even with years in color are out of the game: "say what?!"
It's easy to figure out by yourself. Just enter the forums, know who is good and
Read the posts...good luck!
Same story if you frequent FX forums. Bags talking about bags...
Specialists talking their stuff.

Look, motion has become so highly technical that in big houses,
People are paied to do one task and not the others.
I talked to someone in Oceania who trained macdudes in one of the biggest
House. (I won't give the name here because it's sensitive).
The colorist does not do anything except coloring. Too complicated,
Too expensive for DIT solutions.
Highly collaborative environement using the same system. And
It's not Resolve.
It was already like that in pre-digital, just that digital boosted
Complexity even further.

So if you look for "perfection" in motion, with the medium and
Background of photography, you will be disapointed.
You have no choice. Or you have the cash, or you DIY,
And accept the inperfection and randomness.

Ommmmm

I think it's not so different than really understanding color management with Photoshop.  It's just that if a print isn't quite right, you just make another.  With movies there's often a lot more money on the line and not so easy to keep re-rendering the movie!  And once, the movie is distributed, it better be correct.

But still, it's not really so complicated once you get your head around it:)  Just look at the color management forum here...
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