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Author Topic: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere  (Read 35505 times)

Manoli

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #140 on: February 24, 2018, 11:38:54 am »

Anyway, if I misunderstood your intent, then I apologise.

No, you're quite right that was a poor choice of words, as 'her indoors' was quick to point out this morning. By then it was too late to correct.

You have my apology, and my assurance that no malice was intended.
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Rob C

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2018, 12:15:32 pm »

I can read, know nothing of any 'agenda' and dare say my grasp of the English language is every bit as accomplished as yours. These are your own words:

So you need to understand what's so offensive about that.

1. The victim is NOT always, as you put it, 'free to walk'  - which is why coercion is now classified as a duress crime. Whether or not the victim was free to walk, had other ways out or could have adopted other evasive actions has ZERO bearing on the perpetrator's culpability. Nada.

2.  If you can grasp that, you'll perhaps begin to understand 'the agenda' of those that find your position so unpalatable.

1. Oh yes, that's not a difficult idea to grasp at all; what's difficult to grasp is that some, yourself clearly included, fail to understand that the extreme situation you cite, where the person is not able to vanish of her own will, is not flirtation or trying it on: it is rape. I don't think we are speaking about obvious crimes like that at all; at least, I'm not, even if you are willing to lump nearly all possible male/female relationships into that bag. And if, indeed, they really are all legally lumped together in that way, then yet again, the law is proved an ass.

As I have never seen any of your work, I have no idea if you are a pro photographer or not, or even have any experience with model work. If you have, you will already know that one part of the technique of getting the best out of a female model is via flattery, often some verbal flirtation and the doing of whatever it takes to make her think she is wonderful and the best thing to have graced your camera, ever. The trick, simply, is to give her the confidence to do her thing as well as she can, and to take chances and try new things. You need to create an electricity, and an undertone of mild, unspoken and unrealised sexuality is often what it talkes to motivate. I'm told there are photographers who work the opposite way: they shout and curse at the poor girl. I never met such a snapper (no pun etc,) but would not be surprised if they exist.

I have very little experience of working with male models. Whenever I had to, I found it tedious and boring, and had no idea how to get anything out of them. Most appeared to be very dull individuals, and I probably struck them in the same way. Could be that some photographers found the same problem and thought to resolve it in some other way (one they might have imagined was something the model might think was a nice way...)

2. I thought you'd just said there was no agenda? Alice? You hear me? Come back through at once; it's time for tea!

Now I really have closed the door on this thread. Locked it, no; anyone who sees any remote chance of finding a compromise, or just has nothing better to do can carry on, and with my very best wishes.

Rob C

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2018, 12:17:57 pm »

No, you're quite right that was a poor choice of words, as 'her indoors' was quick to point out this morning. By then it was too late to correct.

You have my apology, and my assurance that no malice was intended.

Let's both be cool with that!

;-)

Alan Klein

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #143 on: February 24, 2018, 12:49:08 pm »

No comment.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #144 on: February 24, 2018, 01:30:27 pm »

Robert Roaldi

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #145 on: February 24, 2018, 05:07:51 pm »

I feel the need to point out the irony that no females are participating in this discussion. So basically, a bunch of upper middle class white-haired guys are talking amongst themselves about something that most probably don't have first-hand knowledge of, several of whom maintain that it doesn't really exist, because, well, they say so. I suppose that if some women did join this discussion and tried to tell you that your experience was incorrect, that you'd feel the need to tell them they were wrong. :)
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Robert

amolitor

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #146 on: February 24, 2018, 05:32:21 pm »

Oh, there was a woman. But she left. For reasons some members cannot fathom. I hesitate to speculate what their theories are.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #147 on: February 24, 2018, 05:53:55 pm »

To keep things related to photography and to sum up this verbose discussion with something that speaks 1000 words, here is my best visual advice to Hollywood starlets and would-be models:

<sarc_on>
So, I guess we just tolerate sharks, then. It's okay to be one. They're a part of life. People just have to learn when and how to run. Serves 'em right for being there.
<sarc_off>
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #148 on: February 24, 2018, 06:14:27 pm »

... So, I guess we just tolerate sharks, then. It's okay to be one. They're a part of life. People just have to learn when and how to run. Serves 'em right for being there...

You lefties of all people should know that sharks belong to endangered species. So, all of the above is perfectly true.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #149 on: February 24, 2018, 06:17:05 pm »

... most probably don't have first-hand knowledge of...

Glad to hear a modicum of self-criticism in this thread.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #150 on: February 24, 2018, 06:19:08 pm »

Oh, there was a woman. But she left. For reasons some members cannot fathom. I hesitate to speculate what their theories are.

Oh, yes, we can.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #151 on: February 24, 2018, 06:25:19 pm »

You lefties of all people should know that sharks belong to endangered species. So, all of the above is perfectly true.

I get a big kick out the way you keep calling people "lefties" (whatever that means these days) when you don't agree with them and want to somehow make fun of them. You even managed to get in a dig at "lefty paradise" Canada above, an unwarranted remark in the context I thought, since no one else brought it up. In fact, many of your thread entries are snide remarks directed at others. This comes across as trollish baiting. Why do you do it? What reaction are you attempting to provoke?
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Robert

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #152 on: February 24, 2018, 06:28:34 pm »

Oh, there was a woman. But she left. ...

Only after providing significant contribution to the discussion: righteous indignation, cursing, and name calling.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #153 on: February 24, 2018, 06:45:23 pm »

...In fact, many of your thread entries are snide remarks directed at others. This comes across as trollish baiting. Why do you do it? What reaction are you attempting to provoke?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #154 on: February 24, 2018, 07:13:06 pm »

... I suppose that if some women did join this discussion and tried to tell you that your experience was incorrect, that you'd feel the need to tell them they were wrong. :)

Not necessarily. But I would tell them, as i did, that it is not so one-sided.

For example, Sharon stated:

Quote
You don't know what it's like to lose your job... because you wouldn't sleep with your boss.

I do know.

I once lost my teaching job because a student (not a kid, btw, middle-aged) felt spurned that I did not respond to her advances and complained to the college. In these Kafkaesque times, I never learned what the complaint was about. When I asked, they said not to worry about it. Except when the contract-renewal time arrived, they didn't renew it.

At this is the crust of my views on the matter: no due process, no presumption of innocence, not even a chance to hear the other side. A complaint, true or not, done as a revenge, or limelight seeking, or copycat, one-sided, historical revisionism of what happened 10-15 years ago, is these days enough to ruin lives and careers. Because, you know, "why would women lie?"

Peter McLennan

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #155 on: February 24, 2018, 07:46:13 pm »

I get a big kick out the way you keep calling people "lefties" (whatever that means these days) when you don't agree with them and want to somehow make fun of them. You even managed to get in a dig at "lefty paradise" Canada above, an unwarranted remark in the context I thought, since no one else brought it up. In fact, many of your thread entries are snide remarks directed at others. This comes across as trollish baiting. Why do you do it? What reaction are you attempting to provoke?

Precisely, Robert. Thank you.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 08:15:41 pm by Peter McLennan »
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Farmer

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #156 on: February 24, 2018, 08:43:00 pm »

Oh brother! Willing rapes are not news and not reserved to the arts; two to tango is fact, not of someone's imagination. Yes, do stay away if the kitchen is too hot.

Apologist, much?  "Everything's fine from my perspective so if you have a problem it must be you".  Sheesh.
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Phil Brown

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #157 on: February 24, 2018, 08:43:59 pm »

Really? How old were these children? Teenagers? Can you imagine what would happen if these creeps tried this stuff on a few teenage boys?

Do you actually believe that teenage boys are never sexually assaulted or molested by coaches or priests or other men in positions of authority or power?  Are you really blaming the victims?
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Phil Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #158 on: February 24, 2018, 10:10:15 pm »

I get a big kick out the way you keep calling people "lefties" ....

Now, now, boys. if you call yourself so, I can't?

Now, now, boys. You all know I'm a leftie...

LesPalenik

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #159 on: February 24, 2018, 11:40:12 pm »

I feel the need to point out the irony that no females are participating in this discussion. So basically, a bunch of upper middle class white-haired guys are talking amongst themselves about something that most probably don't have first-hand knowledge of, several of whom maintain that it doesn't really exist, because, well, they say so. I suppose that if some women did join this discussion and tried to tell you that your experience was incorrect, that you'd feel the need to tell them they were wrong. :)

The Canadian readers will remember the Gian Gomeshi trial from a few years ago.  The international readers may want to look at the story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Jian_Ghomeshi

He was a bad enough guy (who hired a brilliant and an attractive female lawyer), but at the end of the trial his accusers (three younger women) were lying so much and consequently were proven less credible than him (based on the factual contents of recovered emails) and he was acquited. Regrettably, as Slobodan mentioned, it's not that uncommon, that sometimes it's the accusers who lie. Had they just told the truth without any embelishments, the outcome would have been most probably diffferent and more just.
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