LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere

[ErikKaffehr]

As far as I know he converted from Canonism to Nikonism...

Best regards
Erik

And as far as the fanboy comments goes, it is clearly misplaced. There hasn't been a Canon fanboy spotting in years... 

Cheers,
Bernard

[Alan Goldhammer]

I find that interesting, especially from someone who has dated models.

I've never dated a model though I did meet one at a benefit where I was an invited speaker (and did have a delightful conversation).

Please do me a favour: quote my "offensive" post in full, and then make bold the parts that you found offensive so that I may reread them and try to imagine why.

Re-read Phil Brown's first response to you back on the Pros behaving normally thread.  The problem is not in what you say but the tacit acceptance that this is the way things work/worked.  YOu may have been one of the 'good' guys in a profession that had some bad actors.  I just finished listening to Marc Maron's interview with the actress Heather Graham this morning where they discussed the prevalence of harassment in the movie industry.  Again nothing new with this as it's been all over the news.  Look how long it took to bring some of the more egregious players to justice even though it was well known how long some of this had been going on.  Sexual harassment or offering sexual favors for career advancement are both wrong and should be called out and deemed unacceptable.

[digitaldog]

I expected better from you, Andrew. Such utterly simplistic reasoning is way below your intellectual abilities.

Aimed for the intended audience! 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...  one of us (at least) is wrong. If only we knew for sure which.

Andrew,

I am sure it isn't me. I am never wrong. I thought I was once, but I was mistaken.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Aimed for the intended audience! 

Oh, come on, Andrew! That's the best you can do? I know you can do much better in hurling insults in a debate.

[digitaldog]

Oh, come on, Andrew! That's the best you can do? I know you can do much better in hurling insults in a debate.

Re-read again: Aimed for the intended audience! 

[amolitor]

Please, everyone, be sure to keep the Andrews straight. We're different Andrews. I'm the pretty one.

[RSL]

But your position is untenable, its unsupportable, and it's also just plain wrong. I have done a fair bit of living, and my positions are in fact consistent with my
observations. I actually do pay attention.

Fine, Andrew. Let's hear about the experience you've gained with Rob's subject from your fair bit of living. Let's also hear about the specific observations you say are consistent with your positions.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Please, everyone, be sure to keep the Andrews straight. We're different Andrews. I'm the pretty one.

Of course, and the other is 🐕-ugly. I know. So, who’s confusing you? Not me.

[amolitor]

Sure. Here's one.

I sailed competitively for several years. Sailing, at least in the areas where I sailed, is a profoundly male dominated sport. Probably less than 10 percent women.

Why?

Everyone involved, basically, wanted more women involved. Almost everyone involved felt that women were as good at or better than men at sailing (women, for some reason, seem to be better drivers in particular, and muscle power is irrelevant because if you're using brute strength on a sailboat you've already lost). So, what the hell?

Basically we couldn't quite stop being boys. We'd just say dumb shit. Not quite wolf-whistles, but on that end of things. It doesn't help that sailing overlaps with drinking, so people's judgement isn't always at the top of the charts. Even as a guy acutely conscious of the problem, I found myself on one occasion, cap in hand, apologizing to a young woman.

The result wasn't that women felt violated as such, or particularly vigorously harassed. It was just that there was this relatively low wall they had to climb over. If you want to sail, as a woman, you're gonna have to put up with a little, pretty much continuous, low-key male bullshit. And, frankly, not that many women want to. It's a big world, with much opportunity, and sailing, while attractive, isn't that attractive. It's not like the male BS is a big deal, it's a small deal. But it is one more damn thing, and you know, photography is pretty appealing too and there's less BS, so.

So we have a situation in which literally everyone in play wants more women involved and it just cannot happen because of a bunch of stuff that seems to be baked in, and that sucks.

I worked in tech for 20+ years, fill in the blanks if you want. I was a mathematician for, between 1 and 10 years, depending on how you count, fill in the blanks if you want. I hang around with photographers who hire models to photograph, fill in the blanks if you want. And I dare say there's a few other bits and pieces here and there. I've been around a while, I've done some things, and often there were women lurking about the place.

[Rob C]

Sure. Here's one.

I sailed competitively for several years. Sailing, at least in the areas where I sailed, is a profoundly male dominated sport. Probably less than 10 percent women.

Why?

Everyone involved, basically, wanted more women involved. Almost everyone involved felt that women were as good at or better than men at sailing (women, for some reason, seem to be better drivers in particular, and muscle power is irrelevant because if you're using brute strength on a sailboat you've already lost). So, what the hell?

Basically we couldn't quite stop being boys. We'd just say dumb shit. Not quite wolf-whistles, but on that end of things. It doesn't help that sailing overlaps with drinking, so people's judgement isn't always at the top of the charts. Even as a guy acutely conscious of the problem, I found myself on one occasion, cap in hand, apologizing to a young woman.

The result wasn't that women felt violated as such, or particularly vigorously harassed. It was just that there was this relatively low wall they had to climb over. If you want to sail, as a woman, you're gonna have to put up with a little, pretty much continuous, low-key male bullshit. And, frankly, not that many women want to. It's a big world, with much opportunity, and sailing, while attractive, isn't that attractive. It's not like the male BS is a big deal, it's a small deal. But it is one more damn thing, and you know, photography is pretty appealing too and there's less BS, so.

So we have a situation in which literally everyone in play wants more women involved and it just cannot happen because of a bunch of stuff that seems to be baked in, and that sucks.

I worked in tech for 20+ years, fill in the blanks if you want. I was a mathematician for, between 1 and 10 years, depending on how you count, fill in the blanks if you want. I hang around with photographers who hire models to photograph, fill in the blanks if you want. And I dare say there's a few other bits and pieces here and there. I've been around a while, I've done some things, and often there were women lurking about the place.

Now that's touching, Andrew; my women never lurked. They were right up there, in your face. It was up to you to deal with it. No shrinking violets ever got anywhere, to my knowledge, female, male or anything somewhere in-between.

That's what makes the Me2ers etc. come over as a bunch of whited sepulchers. Like I claimed before, you should know the business you want to crash. By the time you are walking red carpets you have probably paid your dues, made your deals with your particular devils - one way or the other.

Unfortunately, perhaps the surprising choice of walking away from situation they didn't like didn't occur to them... or if it did, they survived and got to where they currently are: on that desirable red carpet they suffered to tread. Life is never easy, even for the rich.

[RSL]

Sure. Here's one.

I sailed competitively for several years. Sailing, at least in the areas where I sailed, is a profoundly male dominated sport. Probably less than 10 percent women.

Why?

Everyone involved, basically, wanted more women involved. Almost everyone involved felt that women were as good at or better than men at sailing (women, for some reason, seem to be better drivers in particular, and muscle power is irrelevant because if you're using brute strength on a sailboat you've already lost). So, what the hell?

Basically we couldn't quite stop being boys. We'd just say dumb shit. Not quite wolf-whistles, but on that end of things. It doesn't help that sailing overlaps with drinking, so people's judgement isn't always at the top of the charts. Even as a guy acutely conscious of the problem, I found myself on one occasion, cap in hand, apologizing to a young woman.

The result wasn't that women felt violated as such, or particularly vigorously harassed. It was just that there was this relatively low wall they had to climb over. If you want to sail, as a woman, you're gonna have to put up with a little, pretty much continuous, low-key male bullshit. And, frankly, not that many women want to. It's a big world, with much opportunity, and sailing, while attractive, isn't that attractive. It's not like the male BS is a big deal, it's a small deal. But it is one more damn thing, and you know, photography is pretty appealing too and there's less BS, so.

So we have a situation in which literally everyone in play wants more women involved and it just cannot happen because of a bunch of stuff that seems to be baked in, and that sucks.

I worked in tech for 20+ years, fill in the blanks if you want. I was a mathematician for, between 1 and 10 years, depending on how you count, fill in the blanks if you want. I hang around with photographers who hire models to photograph, fill in the blanks if you want. And I dare say there's a few other bits and pieces here and there. I've been around a while, I've done some things, and often there were women lurking about the place.

Okay Andrew. That's quite a confession. I've never sailed competitively, and I've never done fashion photography, but I've spent a few years overseas in the military where the kind of behavior in which you and your buddies were engaging would be considered extremely tame. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. It's one of the short stories I wrote after my last year overseas.

The problem is that you can stand on principle and stamp your feet about the awful things other people do, but unless you've walked in their shoes and learned what they've learned you really haven't a clue, and your foot-stamping comes across as a way to inflate your own ego. I see that too often on LuLa.

[amolitor]

By "lurking about the place" I mean simply that they were present. Perhaps I have read too much PG Wodehouse for my own good.

[Rob C]

The result wasn't that women felt violated as such, or particularly vigorously harassed. It was just that there was this relatively low wall they had to climb over. If you want to sail, as a woman, you're gonna have to put up with a little, pretty much continuous, low-key male bullshit. And, frankly, not that many women want to. It's a big world, with much opportunity, and sailing, while attractive, isn't that attractive. It's not like the male BS is a big deal, it's a small deal. But it is one more damn thing, and you know, photography is pretty appealing too and there's less BS, so.

So we have a situation in which literally everyone in play wants more women involved and it just cannot happen because of a bunch of stuff that seems to be baked in, and that sucks.

I worked in tech for 20+ years, fill in the blanks if you want. I was a mathematician for, between 1 and 10 years, depending on how you count, fill in the blanks if you want. I hang around with photographers who hire models to photograph, fill in the blanks if you want. And I dare say there's a few other bits and pieces here and there. I've been around a while, I've done some things, and often there were women lurking about the place.

1.  Wow! And you don't imagine that that same bullshit drives men out of their minds too? It's one reason I'd always prefer eating with a couple of women than with a table of men. Pubs, as places to stand and drink, I avoided all my life, and only now, single, I use them for quick, reasonable and relatively inexpensive food that matches my pension. Men talk sport for one good reason: they find that the majority of their fellows have almost no conversation at all beyond probably imaginary conquests or how much they earn. With sport, they find a common, easy subject. What's there to say that really matters a damn about kicking a ball or clubbing a poor old golf ball?

2.  What does that mean? What are the blanks one is invited to fill in on that basis of information? Many people hire models for many reasons, some good - some not so much. In exactly the same way there are models and then there are "models".

[pegelli]

and your foot-stamping comes across as a way to inflate your own ego. I see that too often on LuLa.

Yup, ever looked in the mirror? 

[BobDavid]

Yup, ever looked in the mirror? 

Russ is not a pretentious know-it-all. I don't always agree with him, but I respect his intelligence, photography, life experience, and self-awareness.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Russ is not a pretentious know-it-all. I don't always agree with him, but I respect his intelligence, photography, life experience, and self-awareness.

+1

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Yup, ever looked in the mirror? 

That is too personal, uncalled for, and below your dignity.

[RSL]

Yup, ever looked in the mirror? 

Thanks, Pieter. You illustrated my point exactly.

[pegelli]

Russ is not a pretentious know-it-all. I don't always agree with him, but I respect his intelligence, photography, life experience, and self-awareness.

+1, just for the record I never said he was a pretentious know-it-all and I also respect him. I have no idea why you thought any different.