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Author Topic: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere  (Read 35509 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2018, 06:41:25 pm »

Maybe to you. It doesn't make any sense to me, it is a basic logical error of non sequitur. Stating there are women (plural) who sleep their way to the top (undisputable) says nothing about those who were wronged by their boss. Not even close, two completely different categories of events and women.

You hit the nail on the head. Two very different categories and people choose to comment on one or the other.
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Two23

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2018, 07:19:08 pm »

I think its a bit of sticking your head in the sand to ban political comments.  The lack of discourse is one reason we have a tyrant in power.

Exactly the kind of  assinine brain dead comment I wish to avoid.  (Unless, of course, poster lives in North Korea.)



Kent in SD
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Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris,
miserere nobis.

Raul_82

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2018, 07:53:40 pm »

Maybe to you. It doesn't make any sense to me, it is a basic logical error of non sequitur. Stating there are women (plural) who sleep their way to the top (undisputable) says nothing about those who were wronged by their boss. Not even close, two completely different categories of events and women.

You were already generalizing on your statement, maybe it wasn’t meant to include all women but it was all but specific. But besides that, people don’t read into things so cool headed as you apparently say them.
The argument is pointless, I was just using your example to illustrate why someone might leave the forum, which did happen. It’s also pointless because you really don’t seem to care if people leave as long as you hold your undisputed cynical truth.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2018, 08:25:22 pm »

... you really don’t seem to care if people leave...

You called my a misogynist. Not in general terms, but directly. Would you care if I left LuLa because of that? *



* Those of you who started celebrating, settle down, I won't... it was rhetorical  ;)

Raul_82

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2018, 09:03:37 pm »

You called my a misogynist. Not in general terms, but directly. Would you care if I left LuLa because of that.

Maybe but somehow I don’t think you were offended.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2018, 09:52:26 pm »

It might be a mistake to arrive at any conclusions about how healthy LULA is based on what happens in a few threads in the Coffee Corner. Just sayin'.
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Robert

BernardLanguillier

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2018, 12:00:58 am »

I was personally totally OK with the discussions that were taking place in the Coffee corner (the more political the better for me), but I respect's Kevin right as owner of this site to set the rules.

As far as the overall evolution of the site, I see interesting contents being posted, probably more so than in the last years when Michael was leading.

On the other hand it is probably true that the level of discussions in the forum isn't as interesting as used to be, but then again, a lot less is to be discovered technically. This never was too much of an art centric forum, so I believe that the character hasn't changed, there is just a lot less to be excited about regarding the technicalities of photography.

Around year 2004, it could be argued that some people were taking better images thanks to better camera, or that some photographs could be messed up by inferior equipment... nowadays it's all too clear that the photographer is the only possible cause of failure. ;)

And as far as the fanboy comments goes, it is clearly misplaced. There hasn't been a Canon fanboy spotting in years...  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 12:07:57 am by BernardLanguillier »
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LesPalenik

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2018, 12:45:25 am »

Around year 2004, it could be argued that some people were taking better images thanks to better camera, or that some photographs could be messed up by inferior equipment... nowadays it's all too clear that the photographer is the only possible cause of failure. ;)

I recall that at that time, some photographers on this forum claimed that they were getting stunning 24"x30" prints from a 6MP camera.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2018, 12:57:52 am »

... And as far as the fanboy comments goes, it is clearly misplaced. There hasn't been a Canon fanboy spotting in years...  ;D

That's a good one, Bernard!

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2018, 04:31:19 am »

I was personally totally OK with the discussions that were taking place in the Coffee corner (the more political the better for me), but I respect's Kevin right as owner of this site to set the rules.

As far as the overall evolution of the site, I see interesting contents being posted, probably more so than in the last years when Michael was leading.

On the other hand it is probably true that the level of discussions in the forum isn't as interesting as used to be, but then again, a lot less is to be discovered technically. This never was too much of an art centric forum, so I believe that the character hasn't changed, there is just a lot less to be excited about regarding the technicalities of photography.

Around year 2004, it could be argued that some people were taking better images thanks to better camera, or that some photographs could be messed up by inferior equipment... nowadays it's all too clear that the photographer is the only possible cause of failure. ;)

And as far as the fanboy comments goes, it is clearly misplaced. There hasn't been a Canon fanboy spotting in years...  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

I was ok too, and I have been around since 2001 or 2002, if I remember correctly. Of course all polemic subjects get polarized views and opinions, with a bias towards the views from where the majority of members come from.

Regarding the content, what I miss most were the pieces that Michael wrote based on his travels and experiences. He also often extracted a couple of images from his work to explain what worked (or not) visually speaking. I learned a lot from that.

From the pieces being published today, I learn very little, either because I am not interested in video, or I see no value on superficial camera analysis. A review should be made after many months of use, not rushed just to beat some other site to the finish line. For example, Kevin just published a piece about the new Fuji X-H1, listing specs, saying that he has ordered one, but so what? Will there be a follow-up say 6 months from now?

Regards.

Rob C

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2018, 09:37:43 am »

On this particular issue I will weigh in this one time and you can chose to read my response or not. I read the original post from Rob and was offended as well. In my working career I witnessed both sexual harassment of co-workers and women trading sexual favors for advancement.  I also saw men behaving despicably using their position to sleep with co-workers just because they could.  Rob made the point that things happened because that's the way it was.  Remember the old adage that it takes two to tango.  The fact that photographers were enabling of bad behavior should be objectionable on all levels. 

Part of the problem with the CC and the closing of threads is that too often people just wanted to post snarky comments because they thought it was cute to do so.  I tried to keep the focus on issues related to climate change when Ray and I co-moderated the thread.  I was dismayed that people would not stay on topic despite my best efforts to steer things back.

Regarding Enrico M's points about LuLa, there is more than a kernel of truth to what he writes.  I've observed a shrinking number of individuals who post on the technical threads.  I still see and learn from those who post on the Printer and Color Management threads.   I think we all know that some very valued past contributors seem to have left LuLa and we are all poorer for that.  As with everything on the Internet things change and perhaps the sun is setting on LuLa.

I find that interesting, especially from someone who has dated models.

Please do me a favour: quote my "offensive" post in full, and then make bold the parts that you found offensive so that I may reread them and try to imagine why.

You are not an inarticulate person, and I think you will have no difficulty in expressing clearly where you found the problems within my post as in my ways.

Thank you for the courtesy.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: The OP Lacks Perspective
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2018, 09:52:03 am »

Why do you say that, Bill? I'm sure there are many folks who have been reading LL in the past, for a long time, without subscribing.

Enrico has expressed his opinion very well. The nature of the title, Coffee Corner, implies its for a discussion in a cafe, over a cup of coffee, by a group of photographers.

Can you imagine, if a group of photographers were to meet in a cafe, there would be a rule that all discussions should only relate to photography? That would seem a bit restrictive to me.  ;)

Absolutely true, with the difference, though, that real conversation is a series of messages magnified and fleshed out by body language, whereas all the we can discover via the written word is whether the writer can actually write well enough to articulate an understandable position.

But, as our own Keith has sometimes stated here, a group of photographers can often be the very last place one would like to find oneself inhabiting, especially if they are all holding cameras and feel intent on making pictures together. I would find that a little perverse, being of the belief that photography is a lonely art best performed without fellow distractions. I have to add that thinking of photography in terms of fun is also somewhat odd; I think that I have sometimes referred to it as fun, too, but my meaning has really been pleasure. Pleasure and fun are not the same things at all, though they may occasionally overlap...

Christopher Sanderson

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2018, 10:07:15 am »

... Michael was quick to ban, albeit temporarily, offenders and I  really can't recall him ever deleting a whole thread on a capricious whim – certainly never in the numbers we've recently witnessed. Locking, yes - deleting, no. ...

Deleting offensive and inappropriate posts in a respectable is a commendable deed, indeed.
However, deleting whole threads, including a wide mix of both, stupid and insightful posts is akin to burning an entire shelf of reference books in a public library.

The only threads (other than spam) that I have removed from view are in the attached list from the forum moderator's log. All removals occurred on October 8th, 2017.

Arbitrary - yes

Capricious - I don't believe so

Perhaps there is a confusion between topics deleted by the OP and Moderator?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:29:21 am by Chris Sanderson »
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amolitor

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2018, 10:11:00 am »

The offensive part was in the normalizing glibness. The attitude that "well, it's always been that way, it's human nature, not much can be done about it" coupled to a basically glib handwaving.

While, yes, humans are like that, and it always has been like that, doesn't mean that it's OK. It doesn't mean that it's OK to wave it off. There are many many many examples of human systems that were a) very very human b) had "always" been more or less that way c) were definitely not OK d) are now utterly defunct and good riddance. I am sure that there were many feudal lords who defended their system with exactly the same arguments, and felt earnestly and genuinely that they were right, that they were good men doing their best in a difficult world, and that it was a darn shame so many serfs died so young.


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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2018, 10:35:45 am »

I expected better from you, Andrew. Such utterly simplistic reasoning is way below your intellectual abilities.

Rob C

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2018, 10:39:57 am »

It might be a mistake to arrive at any conclusions about how healthy LULA is based on what happens in a few threads in the Coffee Corner. Just sayin'.

You're probably right, but health is measured in many dfferent ways.

For instance, I would rather have read the little, old British Journal of Photography when it was published weekly, than any of the red-top UK newspapers with their the massive distribution figures. And more than either, I used to enjoy the Sunday Times. Not only was it very informative in a news sense, but it employed many gifted writers on topics far removed from which group is currently winning the battle to eliminate which other. I loved reading about Michael Winner's journeys and holidays, some to places of which I knew through work, and also great to read was the late AA Gill; I never set foot in the restaurants he reviewed, never met "the blonde" but his style and wit was rivetting. Then there was Jeremy Clarkson: that the same man could be so different on paper to the clown persona he adopted for tv...

So really, I would have hoped that LuLa could offer more than just brands, upgrades and stuff like that which can be found everywhere and that, in any final analysis, have very little to do with the ability to produce a good photograph. To retain long-term readers I'd think you have to offer more than cameras and lenses, which is why I feel that a rigid attention to things being or not being totally "on topic" is eventually counterproductive in that folks need more to remain interested or intrigued.

Figures mean little, though, unless felt on the bottom line when you are a commercial entity. Which is a problem. The number of visitors published each day seems to have a fairly low relationship to the number of daily posts, and even less to the number of images that get posted. I think, though I confess that I have never done an analysis, that the threads are kept alive by a very limited number of writers. Indeed there are often little flurries of concentrated interest, waves of people objecting to something or the other, but beyond those messages, what else do they regularly contribute, especially photographically, which is what some of them demand be the limits of Lula?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:49:59 am by Rob C »
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Rob C

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2018, 10:51:39 am »

I expected better from you, Andrew. Such utterly simplistic reasoning is way below your intellectual abilities.

I can't add to that - you state it all, as I'm damned sure he recognizes.

;-)

amolitor

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2018, 11:48:34 am »

Now, now, boys. You all know I'm a leftie.

All we've determined for sure here is that one of us has thought it through more carefully than the other. While each of us is convinced that "it's me" one of us (at least) is wrong. If only we knew for sure which.
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RSL

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2018, 12:12:18 pm »

I expected better from you, Andrew. Such utterly simplistic reasoning is way below your intellectual abilities.

+ at least a couple.

I think it's just fascinating to hear from people who have very strong politically correct opinions about this stuff, but who've never actually been in the situations upon which they're commenting.
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amolitor

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Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2018, 12:28:32 pm »

+ at least a couple.

I think it's just fascinating to hear from people who have very strong politically correct opinions about this stuff, but who've never actually been in the situations upon which they're commenting.

Ok, so here we have a really nice case study.

Russ, I like you. I think you like me. To a degree, we have some mutual respect. So, I'm gonna examine this with as much generosity as I can muster.

You have, essentially, addressed a grown man (me)  and not a young one at that. You have asserted, without evidence or without any actual knowledge, that this
person (yes, you weaseled and seem to be referring to an abstract "people" but we all know you mean me) that I have no relevant experience, and am simply
repeated positions that I have, evidently, learned from other sources. Positions which are, in your august opinion, not backed up by my actual life experience.

I genuinely don't think you meant it as insulting, but it was. It is. Am I stung? No, of course not. I'm a grownup, and it's a minor slight, and I don't think
you really meant it as hurtful, so, whatever. I get worse from jamokes on the street every day.

But your position is untenable, its unsupportable, and it's also just plain wrong. I have done a fair bit of living, and my positions are in fact consistent with my
observations. I actually do pay attention.
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