Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 11   Go Down

Author Topic: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere  (Read 35504 times)

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: The OP Lacks Perspective
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 10:03:54 am »

With only 2 previous posts, the OP lacks perspective on the evolution of LuLa.

The assumption that only prolific posters have the perspective on the evolution of Lula is naive and patently wrong. For various reasons, the readers and lurkers exceed significantly the number of writers, and I would bet that there are quite a few Lula longtime lurkers who have followed Lula forum from its inception and have perhaps a better insight than some of the forum contributors with high publicity scores.
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 12:49:08 pm »

I disagree with most of what the OP said except about the Coffee Corner. The description of the CC forum, which has since been changed, used to invite non-photographic topics. So what if there are political etc. threads? No one has to read them. And deleting them - as opposed to just closing them - smacks of censorship. As long as the focus of Lula stays photographic, what's the harm in having a few off-topic threads?
This was tried on several occasions with different topics.  Ray and I tried to moderate a thread on scientific and policy issues behind climate change.  It didn't work.  I found a lot of time taken up with reading posts to decide if they were on topic or not as we promised the site moderators that we would try to maintain a civil discussion.  In short. it didn't work.  I would love to see free ranging discussion on various topics within the CC but I understand the reluctance of Chris and Kevin to let that go forward given the history of the past year. 
Logged

DougDolde

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
    • Images of the American West
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 01:06:30 pm »

I think its a bit of sticking your head in the sand to ban political comments.  The lack of discourse is one reason we have a tyrant in power.
Logged

hokuahi

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
  • Artist, Photographer
    • Exhibition
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 01:43:19 pm »

Regardless of where LuLa may be headed and one way ticket or not, the layout, style, and structure here, is the best out there... Just no better view IMO.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 02:03:20 pm »

... The lack of discourse is one reason we have a tyrant in power.

We would need to have a discourse on that statement, otherwise it goes unchallenged ;)

And that's the conundrum of the current ban on politics. Someone casually throws in a comment that is surely political, which provokes a debate, which is then locked for responses being political.

If we are to honor hosts' requests to refrain from politics, that we should refrain from inserting causal comments that provoke a political debate.

Raul_82

  • Guest
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 03:21:24 pm »

I disagree with most of what the OP said except about the Coffee Corner. The description of the CC forum, which has since been changed, used to invite non-photographic topics. So what if there are political etc. threads? No one has to read them. And deleting them - as opposed to just closing them - smacks of censorship. As long as the focus of Lula stays photographic, what's the harm in having a few off-topic threads?

At least Kevin has spared the Touch of Humor thread that I started long ago <g>!

The harm is people getting offended by one too many cynical or downright offensive replies and going "the hell with this" and leaving after being a reader for many years. There won't be friendship and camaraderie on the Mirrorless thread once the same people get real nasty and unmovable on other hot topics.  I'm mostly out myself, and so far it seems others got tired too. At least SharonVL seems to be gone too after the recent lack of empathy and misogyny displayed on equally locked threads. But hey it's just  ;) for some, so maybe it's not people leaving but being replaced by a more homogeneous thought crew.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 03:27:40 pm »

...misogyny displayed...

Here we go again.

Another casual accusation thrown, with no proof or justification (other than "that's how I see it") and no opportunity to debate it without being accused of politicizing LuLa.

Raul_82

  • Guest
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 03:57:29 pm »

Here we go again.

Another casual accusation thrown, with no proof or justification (other than "that's how I see it") and no opportunity to debate it without being accused of politicizing LuLa.

In reality I agreed with a lot of stuff said on that thread, the business is how it is, yes, it will probably remain the same way, yes, you should know what you're getting in, yes. However remarks like this: Maybe not, but acceptable enough to sleep their way to the top ;)" Or others dismissing personal evidence from a  forum member who lost a job for refusing sex like it was something uneventful, dragged the whole thing down, in my opinion.
And I know that women are not saints or even close, but at least you could show some restraint and not blatantly offend the few ones that happen to come here.
Logged

Enrico M

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 04:01:08 pm »

IMO it is the nature and content of discourse that has changed... It has only been in the past two years or so that the content and manner of heated discussions has become intolerable to many and the demands for Moderator intervention tediously frequent. The Forum used basically to moderate itself. Sic transit...

You've got to be kidding!
DigitalDog v Gary Fong and numerous other 'pro v pro' colourful debates all come to mind.

If the 'nature and content of the discourse has changed'  then please show me where and if someone feels it worth appealing to the Moderators, then I see no reason why he/she should or would want to remain anonymous – tag the thread/post with those who've appealed for moderator intervention …  that would certainly alleviate the 'burden' on the Moderators, and take us back to, as you said above, a forum that moderates itself.

Anyway, my point was simple: by banning a free discussion you limit participation and thereby lessen interest in LuLa. It wasn't necessary or Michael's policy before and I see little demonstrable justification for it now. Michael was quick to ban, albeit temporarily, offenders and I  really can't recall him ever deleting a whole thread on a capricious whim – certainly never in the numbers we've recently witnessed. Locking, yes - deleting, no.

Which in itself raises a different question. I've reposted part of your terms of service below. The parts relevant to this post highlighted in bold.

Given that anyone posting , pro bono, on this forum retains copyright to their posts and that you, the publisher retains the right 'to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame ...' doesn't give you the right to arbitrarily remove posts that aren't, and were not, in breach of your terms of service, retrospectively.

So one has to question whether by deleting whole threads, as opposed to just the offending individual posts, or simply locking a thread in lieu thereof, you were in breach of your own terms of service.

Food for thought ?

Quote
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, inflammatory, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, sexist, racist, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material. Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also forbidden on this forum.

Note that 'trolling' is considered to be a form of abuse and is harassment. Trolls will be banned from posting.

Persistent negativity and unpleasantness which undermine the tone of this forum will lead to the banning of that member.

Note that it is impossible for the staff or the owners of this forum to confirm the validity of posts. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the posted messages, and as such, are not responsible for the content contained within. We do not warrant the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information presented. The posted messages express the views of the author, and not necessarily the views of this forum, its staff, its subsidiaries, or this forum's owner. Anyone who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to notify an administrator or moderator of this forum immediately. The staff and the owner of this forum reserve the right to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame, if they determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, please realize that they may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately.
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 04:37:27 pm »

Deleting offensive and inappropriate posts in a respectable is a commendable deed, indeed.
However, deleting whole threads, including a wide mix of both, stupid and insightful posts is akin to burning an entire shelf of reference books in a public library.
Logged

Robert Roaldi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4763
    • Robert's Photos
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2018, 04:41:59 pm »

I was not going to reply to this thread, especially since I myself posted a few comments in the past that were not photographically related, some of which I later regretted because of the time that was wasted.

However in some of the recent posts here, the tone seems to be that somehow this web site is required to allow all kinds of topic to be discussed for reasons of free speech. I don't know why people would think this. This is not a public affairs web site. The people who run the show have the right to decide how much time they want to spend moderating forum threads and they have done so. They have done no one any harm in arriving at this decision. There are plenty of other forums to discuss these issues. You also have the freedom to start one of your own.
Logged
--
Robert

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2018, 04:50:43 pm »

...However remarks like this: Maybe not, but acceptable enough to sleep their way to the top ;)" Or others dismissing personal evidence from a  forum member who lost a job for refusing sex like it was something uneventful, dragged the whole thing down, in my opinion.
And I know that women are not saints or even close, but at least you could show some restraint and not blatantly offend the few ones that happen to come here.

I take exception to that characterization. There was nothing in that thread that was blatantly offensive. If someone feels offended by the fact that there are women who sleep their way to the top, that is their problem. Denying its existence is ludicrous. Nobody dismissed "personal evidence." Nobody denied there are jerks who would abuse their authority. Nobody denied there are rapists who use violence. Nobody condoned that, explicitly or implicitly. It wasn't even under discussion, because it goes without saying that is illegal, and unacceptable.  The discussion was mostly against one-sided, unique focus on bad men, when the reality is clearly much more nuanced.

You want personal evidence? How about this: I worked for the U.S. government, U.S. and European academic institutions, startup companies in Spain and the U.S., and not one but four major U.S. Fortune 200 companies. I have never practiced, experienced or even heard about quid-pro-quo pressures. Does it mean I am saying such things do not exist? Of course not. Just that in my pretty vast experience, I have not witnessed it in my immediate environment. However, as a boss, I did experience "sexual harassment" by my female employees who were flirting with me or more or less openly expressing desire to sleep with me. Some for pleasure, others for romantic relationship. If someone feels offended by my personal experience, so be it. Note that I put it in quotation marks precisely because I did not see it as harassment, just human nature. None of them asked for anything job related, or gained or lost anything job related.

Farmer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2848
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2018, 04:55:35 pm »

Enrico - you're awfully present for someone who was leaving...
Logged
Phil Brown

Robert Roaldi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4763
    • Robert's Photos
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2018, 04:55:58 pm »

I take exception to that characterization. There was nothing in that thread that was blatantly offensive. If someone feels offended by the fact that there are women who sleep their way to the top, that is their problem. Denying its existence is ludicrous. Nobody dismissed "personal evidence." Nobody denied there are jerks who would abuse their authority. Nobody denied there are rapists who use violence. Nobody condoned that, explicitly or implicitly. It wasn't even under discussion, because it goes without saying that is illegal, and unacceptable.  The discussion was mostly against one-sided, unique focus on bad men, when the reality is clearly much more nuanced.

How do you explain the fact that several people were offended?
Logged
--
Robert

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2018, 05:00:39 pm »

How do you explain the fact that several people were offended?

I do not have to explain it. You explain why you are offended (without resorting to cliche labels of racist, misogynist, bigot, etc.) The burden of proof is on those who accuse. And don't get me started on the whole new phenomenon of professional outragers, snowflakes, and  people easily offended by different opinions.

Robert Roaldi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4763
    • Robert's Photos
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2018, 05:33:52 pm »

I do not have to explain it. You explain why you are offended (without resorting to cliche labels of racist, misogynist, bigot, etc.) The burden of proof is on those who accuse. And don't get me started on the whole new phenomenon of professional outragers, snowflakes, and  people easily offended by different opinions.

Well, I didn't say that I was offended so I don't have to explain anything. I do disagree with what you said, but I was not offended.

But you made statements that seemed to offend people. And you just implicitly offended them again by asserting that they had no right to be offended and that they should explain themselves, i.e., "whole new phenomenon of professional outragers, snowflakes, and  people easily offended by different opinions", which was very thinly veiled. I'm suggesting that you should examine how you phrase things, otherwise people will think you're just trying to bait them.

You're free to not care what I think, that's fair enough, no reason you should.

Logged
--
Robert

Raul_82

  • Guest
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2018, 05:52:21 pm »

I do not have to explain it. You explain why you are offended (without resorting to cliche labels of racist, misogynist, bigot, etc.) The burden of proof is on those who accuse. And don't get me started on the whole new phenomenon of professional outragers, snowflakes, and  people easily offended by different opinions.

Well If you say that women (plural) will sleep their way to the top, you can expect that a woman that lost a job for NOT sleeping with the boss will be offended. I don't think there's anything snowflake about that, it just makes sense.

I could even understand the comment as some sort of locker room comment (after all, our glorious leader tells us that this is OK) but on an open forum, yes it might end up offending somebody, for good reason.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 05:57:10 pm by Raul_82 »
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2018, 06:06:29 pm »

I do not have to explain it. You explain why you are offended (without resorting to cliche labels of racist, misogynist, bigot, etc.) The burden of proof is on those who accuse. And don't get me started on the whole new phenomenon of professional outragers, snowflakes, and  people easily offended by different opinions.
On this particular issue I will weigh in this one time and you can chose to read my response or not.  I read the original post from Rob and was offended as well.  In my working career I witnessed both sexual harassment of co-workers and women trading sexual favors for advancement.  I also saw men behaving despicably using their position to sleep with co-workers just because they could.  Rob made the point that things happened because that's the way it was.  Remember the old adage that it takes two to tango.  The fact that photographers were enabling of bad behavior should be objectionable on all levels. 

Part of the problem with the CC and the closing of threads is that too often people just wanted to post snarky comments because they thought it was cute to do so.  I tried to keep the focus on issues related to climate change when Ray and I co-moderated the thread.  I was dismayed that people would not stay on topic despite my best efforts to steer things back.

Regarding Enrico M's points about LuLa, there is more than a kernel of truth to what he writes.  I've observed a shrinking number of individuals who post on the technical threads.  I still see and learn from those who post on the Printer and Color Management threads.   I think we all know that some very valued past contributors seem to have left LuLa and we are all poorer for that.  As with everything on the Internet things change and perhaps the sun is setting on LuLa. 
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2018, 06:27:24 pm »

Well If you say that women (plural) will sleep their way to the top, you can expect that a woman that lost a job for NOT sleeping with the boss will be offended. I don't think there's anything snowflake about that, it just makes sense...

Maybe to you. It doesn't make any sense to me, it is a basic logical error of non sequitur. Stating there are women (plural) who sleep their way to the top (undisputable) says nothing about those who were wronged by their boss. Not even close, two completely different categories of events and women.


Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: LuLa - on a one way ticket to nowhere
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2018, 06:39:00 pm »

... But you made statements that seemed to offend people...

Let's recap the "offenses." I made one general statement about a certain type of women (which no one disputed so far). Nothing personal about anyone on the forum. In exchange, I was called "bullshitter, sleazy, and misogynist," all personal slurs. Who should be offended more here?
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 11   Go Up