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Author Topic: Pros behaving normally  (Read 2653 times)

Rob C

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Pros behaving normally
« on: February 19, 2018, 10:13:34 am »

Yes, tom b, you had the last word (last post? oh, never mind) on your thread, but only becaue you found yourself out of your depth and locked it. Anyone can do that.

To add anything valid to a theme you really do have to know something about it, and the world of pro photography appears to have been operating on a different planet to the one you inhabit.

Slobodan's credibilty is far from in tatters: he comes out of this little joust as being far more worldly-wise than some!

What has been demonstrated very clearly, over and over again in life, is that populist slogans derived from a very tight and peculiarly unnatural point of view, whether based on religious credos or political correctness, never do get the human equation right: equilibrium escapes them because it is forever not on their agenda. Their agenda is confined to one narrow vision of what constitutes the state of perfection.

I can only repeat something I know from my own life experiences: I have never met a woman who did not know how to get what she wanted because she was a woman. How she gets what she wants is up to her, and it is none of my business nor of yours.

The world of modelling, as acting and music - showbiz, then, has always been noted for its bohemian lifestyle expectations and for its extremes of fiscal reward, in either direction. That excitement is very often the attraction for those unwilling to become wage slaves. Anybody thinking of getting involved must know that, or discovers it pretty damned quickly. That's one of the reasons that people under at least eighteen should be kept the hell out of it. It is not a game for minors. At the end of the day, a model agency is not a crèche and neither should it be expected to act as such. If a parent is willing to let its child tread there, greed and/or transferred ambitions obviously firmly at work, then that parent should be obliged also to be chaperone. Period.

The very definition of model can't avoid the fact that it's all about looks, that person's looks, and that's where it both begins and ends: with those looks. If one wants to strive for success based on one's looks, then one must expect that one is going to be judged by them and that they are also the cards one can play, understanding, the while, that one has intentionally turned oneself into a commodity, a slab of meat, in some cases.

If that's too difficult to handle, become a librarian or a curator, and accept the slavery of the salary. Most of the world has.

Rob C

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 03:11:29 pm »

Totally disagree with you on this Rob. Your views are archaic. You don't know what it's like to lose your job (I was 18, he was 30) because you wouldn't sleep with your boss. It's not all right because it's  modeling or art or movies or whatever - what a bunch of bullshit.

Sharon, people lose their jobs every day; some because they are useless at their job, some because they are too good and present a challenge to the boss; some because they won't have sex with the boss and some because the business just folds. There are all sorts of reasons to make it happen, and I certainly do not think it good behaviour to fire people because they won't get personal with you, the boss or employer or co-worker or whatever.

That said, it is also true that there are certain areas of work where normal behaviour patterns fizzle out. It's a fact of life and not wishing it to be so does not change it. I firmly believe that people must be aware of where they desire to put themselves in life. The world is as it is, and not a lot is going to change. If you think about it in terms of proportion, you have to accept that even where people are slaughtered every day by gun violence, change will not happen on any meaningful level. If you know that that can't be altered, what on Earth makes you think a few models' complaints are going to change life in a dodgy business like model photography? It won't; a few visible heads may roll, but those spaces will instantly be filled by new supplicants.

Believe me, I spent my working years in the business, and no legislation, public shaming or anything else will hold back the tides of young women leaping headlong into it, all risks be damned, and as many fresh young Turks waving cameras at them with bedrooms filling their imaginations. It probably doesn't feature large in your current work, but for many other snappers it is an everyday event to gaze temptation in the eye... The trick, of course, is to try to make it as difficult for yourself to fall into that trap as you can.

What, exactly, other than express disapproval, can anyone realistically do about it? Nobody pretended it was all a church picnic we were having, though today, the latter may be even more dangerous.

Archaic. Of course it is! As archaic as Adam and Eve. It's where we came in. We have no plan B. That's really where you must look for the "bullshit" distressing you right now. I have a daughter and two granddaughters: I am happy they found work in areas other than mine. That said, I am sure they would have survived pretty intact! Much of it depends on the individual and whether or not of the victim mentality. You survived; why not the rest? Look for the answer within their own heads. Again, nobody says it's all right; I say that it is what it is, and if it upsets you, don't go near it. Anyone who seriously believes that it is possible to run around studios or on location somewhere half-naked or totally so, and that the normal rules of office life apply is living in a tree.

I can only restate: think about the ticket you want to buy before you climb into that bus.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2018, 04:43:35 pm »

What, exactly, other than express disapproval, can anyone realistically do about it? Nobody pretended it was all a church picnic we were having, though today, the latter may be even more dangerous.

If you are making the case that there are plenty of jerks around, you likely won't get an argument from anyone.

But this argument needs more care and nuance. Otherwise, people will interpret it in a way that makes it ok to send 10 year olds into coal mines and ok to buy and sell humans. "There's nothing to be done, that's the way we are" is WAY WAY too facile. We no longer burn witches, we don't think it's ok for politicians to take bribes (at least not when the "other" side does, that is), we no longer think it's ok to apportion opportunity based on heredity. So let's not pretend that things can't or don't change.

Times change and so does our thinking. When people hint or imply that things can't be changed, you always have to ask who benefits from the status quo. I'm sure that 19th century southern plantation owners had all kinds of reasons why changing their ways was a bad idea. They even tried to codify them into "states rights" to lend their ideas a semblance of respectability. It is required that we cut through bs.

Please don't insult everyone's intelligence by (implicitly) suggesting that women who sleep their way up the ladder somehow "balances" out the women who are Weinstein'ed by someone who holds power over them. It's not a credible position.
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Robert

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2018, 05:07:18 pm »

Sorry, but "it's always been that way", "that's how it is", "it's too hard to change", are all BS responses.

Change is easy - you just have to want to do it and people will generally want to do it if there are significant consequences to not doing it (changing).

Yes, there will always be bad people doing bad things, but we should never accept exploitation or duress as normal, acceptable, business practices.
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Phil Brown

Rob C

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2018, 06:01:21 pm »

Well, I also believed in Santa when I was a kid.

At 80, I have the mileage to know that legislation will have all the lasting effects of Prohibition.

People are never going to be perfect; life does not work along the lines of the meek inheriting the Earth, and anyone telling you otherwise is living in a dream or, simply, has never left the farm.

I have no wish to alienate anyone, neither do I wish to bed anyone I should not be bedding. I simply know for a fact that anyone who tells you that humans can change are delusional. Slavery is rife today; it just operates in different ways and in some countries, exactly as in the traditional ones we knew not so long ago in the west.

Promiscuity is also flourishing - consider the rising millions of single mothers - and you can bet your ass not all of them are models, actresses, airline stewardesses or victims of rape. Sex is eternal and gives not a damn about anything but the propagation of the species.

One can sit and write letters to the editor and express outraged indignation, wear the most flattering of black, but guess what: nothing changes, only the list of characters comes and goes, but the show rolls on eternally.

The difference between what people think an ideal world and the one that we have is immeasureable. It will always be that way. Normal business practice has little to do with showbiz; normal business practice does not flourish on ego, good looks, sex appeal and the adulation of millions of total strangers. You are all trying to fit some straightjacket of normality onto the body of the most abnormal industries in the world. Worst of all, you are not speaking from the basis of any long-term exposure to either the temptations or the rewards, real or imaginary, as they often turn out to be.

You have to be in it to understand how it is. Don't compare a normal office job with it; before trying to save an industry that usually doesn't want your help, understand that there are as many aggressive huntresss out there as hunters; it's usually the lioness that does the killing. For every girl who has been sold a bill of goods, there are dozens more who have enjoyed the trip and made millions from it. I recently caught a clip of the late Ava Gardner where she says she enjoyed every minute of her life. Count her beaux.

But enough from me; I hope I have made it clear that whilst I do not approve of anyone forcing their attentions upon anyone else, that is not everyone's position, and that for every genuine victim there are people who have used and enjoyed the system to their advantage. As I said before, be very careful the road you choose to travel, and don't expect it to change direction when you realise it was the wrong one for you.

As I suggested, it's the only show we have.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 06:39:47 pm »

... Please don't insult everyone's intelligence by (implicitly) suggesting that women who sleep their way up the ladder somehow "balances" out the women who are Weinstein'ed by someone who holds power over them. It's not a credible position.

Absolutely agree!

There is no balance. The ratio is probably 100:1 if not million-to-one. There are millions more of women who slept their way to the top, than those who were "Weinstein'ed," if the top includes marriage, for instance. How come? Sleeping to the top is not illegal, quid-pro-quo is.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 06:43:53 pm »

Bullshit. Utter total bullshit.

Cursing, just like righteous indignation, is hardly a valid debate response.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 06:45:40 pm »

I have never worked with a woman who slept her way to the top but I've worked with many who received unwanted sexual advances.

That goes against elementary logic: you can't possibly know if the advance is unwanted until you advance it.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 06:55:37 pm »

What a bunch of sleezy behavior you advocate, Slobadan. I'm through reading it.

Where and when did I advocate sleazy behavior? I am merely pointing out the fact that the reality and truth are multifaceted, and hardly as simple as the mass hysteria would like you to believe.

LesPalenik

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 07:06:08 pm »

Google search: women who slept their way to the top
Result: About 32,500,000 results (0.45 seconds) 
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2018, 08:07:37 pm »

This too can be a discussion if moderation prevails. Please.

tom b

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 08:31:42 pm »

Hey Chris, I closed down the topic, and yet it got another life.

Obviously women's health, safety doesn't matter. It's just part of what you have to do to get the job.

Frustrated,
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 08:38:15 pm by tom b »
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Tom Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2018, 08:59:06 pm »

... Obviously women's health, safety doesn't matter...

I think i already explained to you the concept of a straw man argument: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=122959.msg1025102#msg1025102

tom b

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2018, 09:09:03 pm »

Straw man = fake news, already mentioned.

Hey, that's why I closed the thread.

Please Chris or some other moderator kill of this misogynistic thread, I would if I could.
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Tom Brown

LesPalenik

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 09:30:28 pm »

Please Chris or some other moderator kill of this misogynistic thread, I would if I could.

We know, you would.
FYI, you can always ignore this thread or switch to A Touch of Humor section. Or to the Wet Darkroom.
If that is too hard for you, there is even a forum option to filter out certain threads and posters. Once it is set-up, it works fully automatically. Much easier than Sony menus.
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Pros behaving normally
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2018, 10:26:10 pm »

This debate must happen elsewhere - sorry!
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