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Author Topic: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?  (Read 8825 times)

Bo_Dez

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2018, 05:43:52 pm »

But then H lenses were working on the 200 mpixels multishot already a few years ago.

There is a difference between working and wowing. Stopped down the lenses are good. No one shoots with the Multishot camera wide open.

Like I said, the H lenses are very good but next to the best 35mm lenses they aren't so strong.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 12:29:06 am »

Hi,

Most H-lenses are pretty good, as far as I can recall. But, a lot of things have been going on in lens design and it seems that the lenses for the GFX are playing in another division.

Generally, when you scale down a lens design it will get higher resolution. Cell phone lenses have extremely high resolution, in lp/mm but the sensors are also small.

The major issue with cell phones is probably that they are thin. That limits the length of the lens.

Much of the development of sensors originates in small sensors and migrates to larger sensors. I don't think cell phone cameras ever will catch MFD, but I would think they will be good enough for most things.

On the other hand, I would think that once you mount the camera on a tripod it may as well be a more substantial one.

Best regards
Erik

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landscapephoto

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 02:07:13 am »

There is a difference between working and wowing. Stopped down the lenses are good. No one shoots with the Multishot camera wide open.

Like I said, the H lenses are very good but next to the best 35mm lenses they aren't so strong.

Your message implied that nobody needed the increased resolution. I noticed that some photographers used a multishot camera because they did. Your message also implied that lenses were not good enough. I noticed they were good enough for multishot users. True: they may have needed to stop the lens down (a bit), but that is not necessarily a problem.

FWIW, at next Photokina you will get cameras with the 150 mpix sensor and no new lenses in H mount, so the discussion is settled.
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landscapephoto

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2018, 02:11:48 am »

Most H-lenses are pretty good, as far as I can recall. But, a lot of things have been going on in lens design and it seems that the lenses for the GFX are playing in another division.

If I remember correctly, you do not own H lenses (you own CF lenses) and neither do you own a GFX and its lenses. I would bet that you never rented or borrowed them to try them either.
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Bo_Dez

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2018, 03:56:02 am »

Your message implied that nobody needed the increased resolution. I noticed that some photographers used a multishot camera because they did. Your message also implied that lenses were not good enough. I noticed they were good enough for multishot users. True: they may have needed to stop the lens down (a bit), but that is not necessarily a problem.

FWIW, at next Photokina you will get cameras with the 150 mpix sensor and no new lenses in H mount, so the discussion is settled.

No, the discussion isn't settled.

I did imply that in some ways they aren't good enough because they aren't. That's coming from some one who has used them for a decade.

Just because they work, and will continue to work OK on 150MP, doesn't mean they work perfectly in every way and doesn't mean they don't have flaws that you have to work around. It certainly doesn't mean they don't need improving to bring them up to scratch with long overdue updates.

The newer lenses like the 50 II and the 120 II are much better.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 04:06:47 am by Bo_Dez »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2018, 09:19:02 am »

Your message implied that nobody needed the increased resolution. I noticed that some photographers used a multishot camera because they did. Your message also implied that lenses were not good enough. I noticed they were good enough for multishot users. True: they may have needed to stop the lens down (a bit), but that is not necessarily a problem.

FWIW, at next Photokina you will get cameras with the 150 mpix sensor and no new lenses in H mount, so the discussion is settled.

A few things to keep in mind. 

First, the advantage of a multi-shot camera to a professional is not the resolution, but the fact that you are not relying on interpolation to determine the two missing RBG values for each pixel.  (Remember, each pixel only sees either red, blue or green, but each pixel needs a value for all three to create a color image).  This cuts down greatly on color artifacts, such as color morie and digital blooming. 

Second, cutting out interpolation created sharper edges on objects too.  This is complicated to explain why, but the results are striking, and certainly made lenses appear better then they were.   

Third, of course the added resolution does add a benefit as well, but not in the way you are thinking about it.  In the early days of digital, pattern morie was more of an issue too, and increasing resolution decreased this as well.  This is extremely useful when shooting speakers and objects with very small repetitive patterns. 

Last, even though the multi-shot backs gave you more resolution, the pixels were still relatively large.  Each of the 4, or 6, shots per digital capture were using the same size pixels as a single shot capture, so the lenses did not need to resolve any better then for the a single shot capture of 39 MP. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:54:30 am by JoeKitchen »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2018, 12:03:08 pm »

Hi,

On the other hand, I know how to read MTF data and both Hasselblad and Zeiss publishes MTF data.

I also know a guy, Jim Kasson, who owned quiet a few V and H-series lenses and did very detailed comparison between those lenses and native lenses for the GFX.

Jim sold off all his Hasselblad H and V gear.

Hasselblad did some detailed comparisons between some of the HC lenses and the CF/CFi/CFE lenses when the H cameras series were released. In that comparison that Hasselblad made, the HC-lenses had a more balanced comparison between infinity and close range, but near infinity the lenses were pretty close: http://static.hasselblad.com/2015/02/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf

You may think that I can lease a lens and camera, with unknown history and use it for some days and get more reliable results than data measured by Hasselblad using gear costing up to something like a million $US operated by the designer of the HC-lenses?

Just to say, Hasselblad publishes MTF data for both HC-series and X-series, why don't you download and check?!

Best regards
Erik

If I remember correctly, you do not own H lenses (you own CF lenses) and neither do you own a GFX and its lenses. I would bet that you never rented or borrowed them to try them either.
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landscapephoto

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2018, 12:47:15 pm »

Just because they work, and will continue to work OK on 150MP, doesn't mean they work perfectly in every way and doesn't mean they don't have flaws that you have to work around. It certainly doesn't mean they don't need improving to bring them up to scratch with long overdue updates.

I never said they were perfect. No physical system is.

The newer lenses like the 50 II and the 120 II are much better.

Indeed they are.
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landscapephoto

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 12:49:54 pm »

Last, even though the multi-shot backs gave you more resolution, the pixels were still relatively large.  Each of the 4, or 6, shots per digital capture were using the same size pixels as a single shot capture, so the lenses did not need to resolve any better then for the a single shot capture of 39 MP.

I don't think this is mathematically correct. You are sampling at double the resolution with a larger window.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2018, 01:09:49 pm »

I don't think this is mathematically correct. You are sampling at double the resolution with a larger window.

The increase in resolution is from using 4, or 6, shots at 39 MP each to upscale to a single larger file size.  Although it is not 100% similar to upscaling from a single capture, it is still relies on multiple native resolution of 39 MP shots to get the job done.  Therefore the resolving power of the lens does not need to be any better for a higher resolution multi-shot image then it needs to be for the native 39 MP single shot image.

On top of this, there is no interpolation being used here.  I did not want to explain this before, but will now.  Since each pixel only sees either red, green or blue in a single capture, the computer uses the neighboring pixels of opposite color to the one in question to interpolate, or guess, the missing two values for that pixel, for every single pixel.  This presents a number of problems, one in particular is for pixels at a sharp edge in images where there are two drastically different shades on either side. 

Here, since each pixel at or near the edge is having its missed color values based upon pixels on both sides of this border, the computer does not exactly know how to proceed.  So, depending on how drastic the shades are, the interpolation will create graduated values for these missing colors and will, in effect, create a slighting blurred edge. 

With a multi-shot capture, the sensor moves one pixel per shot, so the computer knows the exact value for all three colors for each pixel.  There is no guess work involved, thus the problem described above does not occur (and a few others too). 

Now, typically, most photographers will not even notice this, even at 100%, since most have not seen a single capture of the same image compared to a multi-shot capture.  But, if you ever do, it is very noticeable and makes the image look sharper at 100%. 

As a matter of fact, currency is designed around the blurring created from interpolation to deter counterfeiters.  Fine details in money often do not show up in the image, or not sharp enough to print from.  With a multi-shot capture, all the detail is present. 

So, because of this, even an okay lens on a multi-shot capture will make a sharper looking image, due to no interpolation at work, then a great lens on a single shot capture. 

Therefore, we can not make assessments about the quality of lenses based on multi-shot images for single shot captures that are approaching the same resolution of that multi-shot capture. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 01:17:14 pm by JoeKitchen »
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landscapephoto

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2018, 01:11:50 pm »

On the other hand, I know how to read MTF data and both Hasselblad and Zeiss publishes MTF data.

We were talking about GFX lenses. Fuji publishes MTF for those, but the curves lack units and do not specify the aperture. Even then, a comparison of the GFX 23mm and the HCD 24mm appears to show that the H lens is at least as good.The GFX 45mm would be a bit better than the HC 50-II, but only in the center. OTOH, the GFX 110 and Macro 120mm lens would be vastly better than anything on this planet, if the curves are to be believed.

I also know a guy, Jim Kasson, who owned quiet a few V and H-series lenses and did very detailed comparison between those lenses and native lenses for the GFX.

I have read his blog.
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landscapephoto

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2018, 01:30:18 pm »

The increase in resolution is from using 4, or 6, shots at 39 MP each to upscale to a single larger file size.  Although it is not 100% similar to upscaling from a single capture, it is still relies on multiple native resolution of 39 MP shots to get the job done.  Therefore the resolving power of the lens does not need to be any better for a higher resolution multi-shot image then it needs to be for the native 39 MP single shot image.

Nope. The larger pixel aperture indeed adds a low-pass filter, but does not suppress high-frequency content. The reconstruction process can extract the higher frequency content from the data.

If your theory was correct, there would be no difference between the multishot mode giving the same number of pixels (which indeed simply suppresses colour aliasing) and the mode where additional samples are taken by moving in half-pixel steps. Yet, the two modes exist and give different results. Actually, Hasselblad sells two cameras: a 50MS (just removes colour aliasing) and 200MS (removes colour aliasing and increase resolution by taking extra pictures using half steps).
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JoeKitchen

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2018, 01:37:42 pm »

Nope. The larger pixel aperture indeed adds a low-pass filter, but does not suppress high-frequency content. The reconstruction process can extract the higher frequency content from the data.

If your theory was correct, there would be no difference between the multishot mode giving the same number of pixels (which indeed simply suppresses colour aliasing) and the mode where additional samples are taken by moving in half-pixel steps. Yet, the two modes exist and give different results. Actually, Hasselblad sells two cameras: a 50MS (just removes colour aliasing) and 200MS (removes colour aliasing and increase resolution by taking extra pictures using half steps).

Sure, this is correct, but the captures are still 50 MP each.  So, the lens does not need to resolve for a 200 MP capture; it just needs to be good enough for a 50 MP capture. 

The half steps are simply used to give the computer a much better guess on how to create additional details during the upscaling process.  We have to assume there is certain amount of information between each pixel that is not being captured, just due to the space that exists between each light absorbing diode.  The half steps solves this problems, to a degree, and allows the computer to see the missing information. 

Kind of like reading between the lines, literally. 

So, I say again.  If a lens works well on a 200 MP image produced from a 6-shot 50 MP multi-shot capture, this does not mean that same lens will work well with a 200 MP single shot capture. 
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landscapephoto

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2018, 01:48:39 pm »

Sure, this is correct, but the captures are still 50 MP each.  So, the lens does not need to resolve for a 200 MP capture; it just needs to be good enough for a 50 MP capture.

I don't agree. The details need to be transmitted by the lens. The many samples taken after the lens can be of low resolution, enough of them will allow to reconstruct the data transmitted by the lens but not more.

Actually,a similar oversampling process is used in astronomy: you take lots of pictures after a telescope to increase resolution. You are still limited by the resolution of the telescope. An article: http://www.adass.org/adass/proceedings/adass99/O6-02/
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JoeKitchen

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2018, 01:56:25 pm »

I don't agree. The details need to be transmitted by the lens. The many samples taken after the lens can be of low resolution, enough of them will allow to reconstruct the data transmitted by the lens but not more.

Actually,a similar oversampling process is used in astronomy: you take lots of pictures after a telescope to increase resolution. You are still limited by the resolution of the telescope. An article: http://www.adass.org/adass/proceedings/adass99/O6-02/

I think this is an apples to oranges comparison. 

With astronomy it is not practical to use multi-shot technology where the sensor is moving a pixel each time, allowing for sampling a of each color value for each.  The earth is moving, along with whatever is being observed.  So here, even though multiple captures are being use, the computer does not know the color value for each pixel and is still guessing.  This is partly different then what Hassy does by eliminating the interpolation.   

Also, multiple captures of the night sky are not only used to increase resolution, but to also decrease noise.  Dark images shot at a higher then native ISO is going to create a far amount of noise with a ccd sensor.  Having many captures of (about) the same scene helps at removing that noise. 

So maybe the lens does have an effect here.  However, I still think, due to a lack of interpolation, we can not assume a lens that worked well with a 200 MP multi-shot capture will work with a 200 MP single shot one that utilizes interpolation. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 02:09:23 pm by JoeKitchen »
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delfalex

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2018, 03:21:45 pm »

I had a chance to look at some comparative test shots from the 400MS today - they weren't that well taken, but there was enough there to gleam an idea of what it could do: the greater resolve in detail gained by the RGBG Multishot in comparison to the Single shot was plainly evident: just the same as when comparing the 22MP/39MP/50MP Multishot files with their Single Shot counterparts. However when comparing the 6S files with Multishot file, less extra detail was resolved in comparison with what the 200MS 6S was able to do in comparison with its Multishot counterpart. Simply speaking I felt that I was looking at a high resolution image of the interior of the HC120II and the pixel grid was way finer than the tiniest bit of image detail.


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tintoreto

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2018, 04:34:23 pm »

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KevinA

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2018, 02:50:53 pm »

Well for me its lighting, moment or atmosphere, or a combination of all three that decides if a picture is any good. Pixels don't count a heap to anyone other than photographers.
I wonder what resolution Canaletto painted at, anyone ever look at his paintings and say "if only we could see more bricks"? lets face it they could paint to any level of detail they thought necessary, but enough was and is enough :-)
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fredjeang2

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2018, 03:51:53 pm »

Well for me its lighting, moment or atmosphere, or a combination of all three that decides if a picture is any good. Pixels don't count a heap to anyone other than photographers.

Male photographers Kevin. Male photographers....
(It's a bit the same buzz as the dudes who tune their wrecks with chrome and dragster exhausts to show muscles and impress the next door farm's redneck striking blonde. Instead of horsepowers and noise, we have megapixels and lack of noise.)
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eronald

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Re: 80MP from a phone - when will MF catch up?
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2018, 05:44:56 pm »

Well for me its lighting, moment or atmosphere, or a combination of all three that decides if a picture is any good. Pixels don't count a heap to anyone other than photographers.
I wonder what resolution Canaletto painted at, anyone ever look at his paintings and say "if only we could see more bricks"? lets face it they could paint to any level of detail they thought necessary, but enough was and is enough :-)

I don't know about Canaletto, but I went to a gallery in Paris that was selling a Breughel collection, a roomful of them, and the Breughel the Younger pieces definitely rewarded viewing with the loupe which they courteously provided.

Edmund
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