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Author Topic: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink  (Read 1948 times)

MabeHall

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Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« on: February 03, 2018, 12:33:43 PM »

This has been talked about before by me and others but I have some new information. Today I witnessed my 2nd, 6 minute plus cleaning cycle--6 min 37 seconds to be exact (stop watch timed). According to the Canon accounting software, 0.667 ml of ink went on the paper and 92 ml. went into the waste ink tank or, if your counting, $69 worth at OEM ink cost. That is not a typo. I've gotten where I check ink usage before and after printing and total ink consumed went from 986 ml to 1078 ml. The one interesting thing is--(losing $69 of ink on one 8 1/2 X 11 print is not interesting to me), during my discussions with Canon over ink wastage, they informed me that the initial ink set contains more than 80 ml of ink per cartridge. Though I had my doubts, the software now shows me at 96 ml used on one cartridge, 95 and 94 on two others and none with less than 84 ml consumed. I wonder if my cartridges are empty and I'm using ink in the lines? I have yet to replace a cartridge.

Does anyone still think this Canon Pro-1000 is an economical choice for printing? Has anyone seen waste like this with the Epson Pro 800?

Mabe Hall
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2018, 12:39:41 PM »

Of course it's not that 90ml of ink was wasted on one print. The printer's firmware determined that this cleaning was to be launched, based on an accumulation of printing sessions. The more interesting data would be the number of square feet you have printed since the last time you experienced this kind of purge.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MabeHall

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2018, 01:38:57 PM »

Of course I was being a little sarcastic there--it helps when you're seeing $69 of ink go in the old waste tank. But the number you are looking for with regard to paper consumed since the last 6 min cycle is approximately 57 A4 equivalent sheets which is one of the ways the software keeps up with paper consumed. Sq. Meters are given at the bottom of the usage window but I didn't write this down.  Paper consumed is now at 7.66 sq meters. I had used 54 equivalent sheets just after the first 6 min. purge--soooo--sq. meters could be calculated by ratio.

Mabe
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2018, 01:51:22 PM »

Of course I was being a little sarcastic there--it helps when you're seeing $69 of ink go in the old waste tank. But the number you are looking for with regard to paper consumed since the last 6 min cycle is approximately 57 A4 equivalent sheets which is one of the ways the software keeps up with paper consumed. Sq. Meters are given at the bottom of the usage window but I didn't write this down.  Paper consumed is now at 7.66 sq meters. I had used 54 equivalent sheets just after the first 6 min. purge--soooo--sq. meters could be calculated by ratio.

Mabe

OK, An A4 sheet is 93 square inches. Assuming you leave some borders on your prints, you may be covering about 62 square inches per sheet, or about 3530 square inches per 57 sheets, or 24.5 square feet of printing. This is peanuts and amounts to almost 3 dollars per square foot going into the waste tank - it seems beyond the pale and worth discussing with Canon.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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unesco

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2018, 02:23:47 PM »

Does anyone still think this Canon Pro-1000 is an economical choice for printing? Has anyone seen waste like this with the Epson Pro 800?

That's well known issue of some Pro-1000 units widely described in many places on the net and the reason I have chosen P800 over Pro-1000 1.5 years ago to accompany my Epson 3880.

Most of P800 I have seen including mine have no such a dramatic issue on maintenance ink drill like Pro-1000, just as much maintenance ink usage as needed but no more...

On the other hand, you need to know that Epson cheats on ink cartridge capacity - accessible ink amount is not 80ml but ~20% less. The rest remains in ended cartridge probably because of technology specificity since Epsons do not have intermediate sub-tank buffers inside the printer itself. The same states for 24" and 44" printers - also well known, described and measured issue for over a decade (10-20% usable ink than declared).
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Farmer

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 03:18:25 PM »

That's well known issue of some Pro-1000 units widely described in many places on the net and the reason I have chosen P800 over Pro-1000 1.5 years ago to accompany my Epson 3880.

Most of P800 I have seen including mine have no such a dramatic issue on maintenance ink drill like Pro-1000, just as much maintenance ink usage as needed but no more...

On the other hand, you need to know that Epson cheats on ink cartridge capacity - accessible ink amount is not 80ml but ~20% less. The rest remains in ended cartridge probably because of technology specificity since Epsons do not have intermediate sub-tank buffers inside the printer itself. The same states for 24" and 44" printers - also well known, described and measured issue for over a decade (10-20% usable ink than declared).

Nonsense.  Having ink left is not an indication of percentage of ink used unless you measure the total ink first.  Over thousands of ink carts, I've never seen that much ink left.  What you're saying is that on a 600ml cart there's 60-120ml left.  Complete rubbish.  The carts are filled with more than the stated amount anyway.

As with all of the vendors, ink is left in every cart to avoid ever running dry to protect the print heads and avoid air in the lines.  Also, the dampers in an Epson are effectively a small sub tank and work in a similar way, being a reservoir of ink between the carts and the print head.  With all vendors, though, you don't want to introduce air into the lines prior to the reservoirs because when ink and air mix, ink dries - not a good move.

Frankly, the amount of ink used in cleaning cycles by any printer from any vendor doesn't matter.  What matter is the total average ink usage over time for a given area of printed media.  From there, you work out your total cost and, any way you look at it, ink is a small proportion of the cost compared to the media, capital depreciation of the hardware, and time (and there are other smaller costs, too, of course).  Yes, you have to watch all costs, even when they're not the largest, but "waste" as such shouldn't be the focus - total cost of ownership is what's relevant, regardless of how ink is or isn't used.
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Phil Brown

Panagiotis

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 03:38:14 PM »

This has been talked about before by me and others but I have some new information. Today I witnessed my 2nd, 6 minute plus cleaning cycle--6 min 37 seconds to be exact (stop watch timed). According to the Canon accounting software, 0.667 ml of ink went on the paper and 92 ml. went into the waste ink tank or, if your counting, $69 worth at OEM ink cost. That is not a typo. I've gotten where I check ink usage before and after printing and total ink consumed went from 986 ml to 1078 ml. The one interesting thing is--(losing $69 of ink on one 8 1/2 X 11 print is not interesting to me), during my discussions with Canon over ink wastage, they informed me that the initial ink set contains more than 80 ml of ink per cartridge. Though I had my doubts, the software now shows me at 96 ml used on one cartridge, 95 and 94 on two others and none with less than 84 ml consumed. I wonder if my cartridges are empty and I'm using ink in the lines? I have yet to replace a cartridge.

Does anyone still think this Canon Pro-1000 is an economical choice for printing? Has anyone seen waste like this with the Epson Pro 800?

Mabe Hall

As you noticed the total ink consumption calculation is untrustworthy. You are at the first set of cartridges which are total 960ml with a lot of ink still in them and the total ink consumed is 1078ml? That does not mean that the printer didn't throw in the maintenance tank a considerable amount of ink but that it's not 92 ml. Most probably it was around 60ml as reported elsewhere. If you want to have more accurate data you will have to weight the tank before and after the cleaning event. In any case the PRO-1000 wastes a lot of ink for maintenance. I measured mine (I am not going to continue measuring, I am tired) and the ratio is close to 1:1 (half on paper half in the trash) for my usage. I was also think about switching to P800 but the quality of the operation and the output of the Canon is excellent and also where I live the Canon inks are considerably cheaper than the Epson inks, so I keep the positive for now, I plan my printing costs based on the known consumption and I hope for a future firmware update to improve on the only negative of the PRO-1000 :).
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MabeHall

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 09:59:07 PM »

During one of my many discussions with Canon, they told me the initial fill cartridges contain more than 80ml. They wouldn't say how much but that is why I question how much I have used. They also told me the accounting software can be off 10%. I'm indicating 96 ml used in one cartridge and the printer has not told me to stop printing yet.

I have checked Panagiotis's post where he listed how much he has printed and how much ink was consumed and  I commented then that his use is true production, not hobbyist like me (though my plans for printing have been curtailed some by the ink waste). His 1:1 waste to print is nothing like what I am seeing. My waste to print ratio is more like 7:1 to 10:1 with the 1 being what is put on paper.

With regards to Mark's calculation for my waste, it is not just this one dump (or as Canon would say, cleaning cycle).  Additional ink is wasted every time you wait more than 6 hours between prints.  I've document 4.3 ml waste after only a 43 hour pause between prints. The total wasted since the 1st 6 min cycle is much more than the 92 ml single shot wasted today.

And one last note--make it two. 1. I have never requested a cleaning cycle of any kind--no need to, the prints are always perfect. 2. Canon thinks all of this is normal and will not comment on it except to say, "it only happens on the first fill". 
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2018, 10:43:26 PM »

.................
With regards to Mark's calculation for my waste, it is not just this one dump (or as Canon would say, cleaning cycle).  ..............

And one last note--make it two. 1. I have never requested a cleaning cycle of any kind--no need to, the prints are always perfect. 2. Canon thinks all of this is normal and will not comment on it except to say, "it only happens on the first fill".

The purpose of my calculation wasn't aimed at your total waste, but to identify the amount of printing between the two major maintenance cleaning episodes you reported.

Regarding you note 1: that's right - users don't have much control over this, and the prints are perfect partly because of the maintenance the printer is doing under the hood. As for your note 2, in your case it appears to have happened twice in the life of the first fill, whereas they say once, so this would indicate that either the person you spoke to doesn't know what they were talking about, or there is something wrong with the behaviour of you printer. Both reasons to escalate the issue to a more senior support level. Advice I received from Canon for managing this behaviour while I still had that printer was to never switch it off and it would not re-occur. That worked.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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unesco

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 02:55:53 AM »

Nonsense.  Having ink left is not an indication of percentage of ink used unless you measure the total ink first.  Over thousands of ink carts, I've never seen that much ink left.  What you're saying is that on a 600ml cart there's 60-120ml left.  Complete rubbish.  The carts are filled with more than the stated amount anyway.

You can call "complete rubbish" the ink you've paid for Epson forces you to throw away...

No, they are not filled with significantly more amount of ink than stated - at least for 3880 and P800 for which I have measured and weighted it by myself. At the end the usable amount of ink is ~68 ml out of declared 80 ml (and initially filled with ~80 ml).

There is dozen of similar testimonials on the net, just have a look of two of them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VivLHzHDIM (40 ml wasted out of measured total 225 ml for 220 ml cartridge)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M84u_8hAFzU&t=2s (160 ml wasted out of 700 ml cartridge)

etc, please do "nonsense/rubbish" math by yourself...
Anyway, I prefer it over Pro-1000 unpredictable behavior.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 08:32:29 AM »

You can call "complete rubbish" the ink you've paid for Epson forces you to throw away...
....................I have measured and weighted it by myself. At the end the usable amount of ink is ~68 ml out of declared 80 ml (and initially filled with ~80 ml).
.............................

I'm curious to know exactly how you derived these measurements. Specifically, did you destroy a new 80ml P800 cartridge by prying it apart and emptying the contents of the bladder into a measuring cup and found exactly how many ml poured out? Or did you derive this in some less direct manner?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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loganross

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 12:08:17 PM »

It is not very scientific, but I have printed a fair amount since I got my pro 1000 over a week ago.  The main reason is that I want to see the difference against my p800, which I still own. Taking into account the 50% of the cartridges used for priming (but still ultimately available for prints), ink usage doesn't seem to be any worse than for my p800. I have printed about 25 8x11 prints and 2  11x17 prints. The former consumes an average of 0.7 ml of ink per print, with the latter consuming an average of 1.3ml of ink per print.  This is according to Canon Accounting Manager.  Unfortunately, the ink status bars aren't very specific, but I would read them as indicating anywhere from 35-41% ink left.

-For several of these prints, i selected full coverage clear coat.
-All but a few of the photos have been glossy, on a variety of papers from Canon, Ilford, Hahnemhule, and Moab.
-I print through imageprint for most prints, but some were through canon print studio pro (Imageprint uses the Canon XPS printer driver)
-in the ink maintenance settings, I turn off settings 1 and 3, while leaving setting 2 at Standard
-The printer is set to stay on, unless I turn it off.
-I am running the latest firmware (2.60)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 12:24:24 PM by loganross »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 12:19:37 PM »

........ Taking into account the 50% of the cartridges used for priming, ........

............

You know of course that most of this ink is used to fill the lines and remains available for printing.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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loganross

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2018, 12:21:05 PM »

You know of course that most of this ink is used to fill the lines and remains available for printing.

Yes. I should have been clear about that. This is why ink usage looks just fine to me compared to other printers I have owned.
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Panagiotis

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2018, 12:22:28 PM »

You know of course that most of this ink is used to fill the lines and remains available for printing.

Yes but it's going to stay in there at the printer's end of life. So it's wasted anyway.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2018, 12:26:26 PM »

In the long run, yes. For now it's just a continuous flow.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Panagiotis

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 12:29:58 PM »

Yes. I should have been clear about that. This is why ink usage looks just fine to me compared to other printers I have owned.
In the time that you own the P800 how many times did you changed the ink waste tank? In 13 months with the PRO-1000 I am on the 4th waste tank. Also it would be interesting to hear your opinion comparing the output of the two printers. Thanks.
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unesco

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2018, 12:32:00 PM »

I'm curious to know exactly how you derived these measurements. Specifically, did you destroy a new 80ml P800 cartridge by prying it apart and emptying the contents of the bladder into a measuring cup and found exactly how many ml poured out? Or did you derive this in some less direct manner?

for this specific case - the measurements were somehow mix of direct and indirect ways:
1) the full, new cartridge weights 143 g (average of 11 different cartridges +-2 g, weighted using two different devices, however not laboratory ones)
2) completely empty, with all ink manually removed from inside weights 63 g --> so, there was 80 g of ink inside (average of 11 measurements)
3) empty in Epson understanding, when needs to be removed weights 75 g (again, average)
4) today I have specifically opened "empty" VM cartidge to check, and there were 15 ml of ink left, that weighted 17 g what gives 1.13 g/cm3 of density (the weighting device resolution is 1 g so it could be also less or more; capacity measured with medical syringe, opened with blocked ending.

assuming even 1.1 g/cm3 (closer to widely used value of 1.08 g/cm3) those 80 g transfers to 73 ml of the TOTAL ink capacity including unused ink and 62 ml of usable capacity (even worse than I have written in previous post).

now, I wait for an occasion to buy cheaper, outdated cartridge for 3880 and open it unused and measure capacity in ml
I am ex-metrology guy, so have some understanding of potential sources of errors and measurement protocols

all the values for points 1)-4) are the same for 3880 and P800 cartiges including P800 starting ones (in that case, with except of 1))
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loganross

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2018, 02:21:51 PM »

Hi. I am still on my first ink maintenance cartridge with my p800, after 2 sets of cartridges. However I don't know how much this can be compared, as I wonder whether or not the maintenance cartridges are the same size.

Regarding comparison of the two printers, I am finding so far that it is more nuanced than anything else in terms of output.  As well as a difference of features. The p800 has the roller and that is great for canvas. It has great glossy output as well, but there is no gloss Optimizer. My older 13" epson had gloss optimizer, not sure why Epson  didn't continue the trend. 

The Canon clearly is a more modernized design, but the Epson works just as well, including with respect to paper handling.   Chrome Optimizer as well as the lack of auto ink switching were the main motivators for me giving the Canon a shot. Glossies on the Canon are exceptional. I do notice a hint more Canon ability in the Reds, particularly with respect to skin tones, lips, Etc. It is not night and day however.  I haven't printed much Matt on the Canon yet. I am waiting for the image print profiles for Canon fine art smooth to be completed next week.


  The paper has a lot to do with it as well. In other words, having the right paper to align with a particular image has a huge impact.  That is a personal decision.

Profiles really make a difference. Canon profiles for Canon paper are really very good.  Moab provided profiles not so much.  Canon makes profiles for certain Hahnenuhle and canson papers, but I have not tried them. Nor have I tried Hahnenuhle profiles for their own paper. The ilford profiles are very good as well.  In the end, I am using ImagePrint, so I am not reliant upon manufacturer profiles, but I have tested here and there.  The benefit I get, is that by using all imageprint profiles, the profile making methodology is consistent, and it is more realistic to compare prints on the same paper on different printers.


Quote from: Panagiotis
link=topic=123022.msg1025608#msg1025608 date=1517765398
In the time that you own the P800 how many times did you changed the ink waste tank? In 13 months with the PRO-1000 I am on the 4th waste tank. Also it would be interesting to hear your opinion comparing the output of the two printers. Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 03:59:48 PM by loganross »
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Farmer

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2018, 03:28:21 PM »

for this specific case - the measurements were somehow mix of direct and indirect ways:

...


The carts that came with the printer?
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Phil Brown
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