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Author Topic: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?  (Read 6351 times)

saiguy

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Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« on: February 02, 2018, 02:27:13 pm »

Seeking advise. Not certain which color space to use as there seem to be competing benefits.

I'm doing a scan project of about 9k slides, mostly Kodachrome. I have raw scanned 4k of them to SF8 HDR thus far and will now post process those and will be delivering them via a Lightroom Catalogue when project is finished. The project will be housed on PC and likely not be color managed.

If I use ARGB they could get better prints IF they get a decent photo printer, and want to print. But may not show well on screen or via a projector.

sRGB would limit printing at home, but that may not be employed anyways. It would be safer for an uncalibrated screen/projector though.

Thanks for any input on this. Could be dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2018, 04:20:02 pm »

Seeking advise. Not certain which color space to use as there seem to be competing benefits.

I'm doing a scan project of about 9k slides, mostly Kodachrome. I have raw scanned 4k of them to SF8 HDR thus far and will now post process those and will be delivering them via a Lightroom Catalogue when project is finished. The project will be housed on PC and likely not be color managed.

If I use ARGB they could get better prints IF they get a decent photo printer, and want to print. But may not show well on screen or via a projector.

sRGB would limit printing at home, but that may not be employed anyways. It would be safer for an uncalibrated screen/projector though.

Thanks for any input on this. Could be damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Why don't you do the conversion into 16-bit Pro Photo and store those files? Then export as sRGB and/or Adobe RGB. That way if your client's needs change, you won't have to rescan.

Jim

David Sutton

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2018, 04:52:35 pm »

You don't mention the subject matter, but Jim's advice to keep your options open is good.
I have seen a photographer's entire collection of flower photographs scanned in srgb. That colour space rendered enough of the colours out of gamut to make the results particularly nasty.
David
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saiguy

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2018, 07:24:12 am »

Thanks Jim and David,

Subject matter is travel photos mostly shot in India starting from 1977. Mostly houses, temples, schools; places associated with the 120 year old monastic order he belongs to.

I am working in ARGB. I have read this doesn't always play well on uncalibrated screens, and non color managed web browsers. Out put size is 5x7 inch. Thus my question.

If they want some special prints I would be re-scanning at larger size and most likely in ProPhoto. I can get decent letter size prints from the ARGB files I will keep even if the project is delivered in sRGB.
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digitaldog

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2018, 08:32:00 am »


Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut


A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.


High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov
Low Res (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q
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saiguy

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 08:13:43 pm »

Andrew, I watched your excellent video for a 3rd time just now. I get it and I follow your advise in my personal work.

Question is how to deliver a project to non color managed end user. ARGB or sRGB?

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Jack Hogan

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 06:06:20 am »

Question is how to deliver a project to non color managed end user. ARGB or sRGB?

Not color managed = sRGB delivery.  I would also Keep/deliver the original scans in ProPhoto 'for professional use only'.

Jack
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saiguy

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 06:44:45 am »

Thanks Jack.

That's what I thought. Since this is a large collection that they consider important I should be able to get them to calibrate their new PC lap top screen that will house the project. Otherwise I'll deliver in sRGB.

I have processed 120 of them in ARGB but will use ProPhoto from now. Is it safe to deliver ProPhoto images if they profile their monitor? Project will be managed in Lightroom.

Converting the ARGB's to ProPhoto; I assume nothing can be gained by that. Is this correct?

thanks again,
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digitaldog

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 07:57:13 am »

Question is how to deliver a project to non color managed end user. ARGB or sRGB?
You can't and shouldn't. sRGB doesn't guarantee anything without color management! Next up:
sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2[/font]


In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:
When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices
How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check
The downsides of an all sRGB workflow
sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices
The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology
Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output


High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4[/font]
Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs[/font]
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digitaldog

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 07:59:15 am »

Not color managed = sRGB delivery.
And if the viewer has a wide gamut display, bad news. Anyone who cares a lick about color appearance has to use color management. Those who don't care don't know and don't use it,
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saiguy

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 11:23:05 am »

Thanks Andrew,

I watched your Urban Legends video before but couldn't remember where I saw it. Nice to see it again.

Would you recommend ProPhoto output and tell my friend he needs to profile the viewing devices?

Much appreciate all the expertise you bring to us.
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digitaldog

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 03:06:04 pm »

Depending on what others do with the actual document maybe ProPhoto RGB but always with color managed applications! And a profiled display.
Thanks Andrew,

I watched your Urban Legends video before but couldn't remember where I saw it. Nice to see it again.

Would you recommend ProPhoto output and tell my friend he needs to profile the viewing devices?

Much appreciate all the expertise you bring to us.
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saiguy

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 03:07:53 pm »

Andrew,

Just watched Urban Legends One. You answered my last question in that video. Now I get it. Thanks again.
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2018, 04:35:52 pm »

Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut


A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.


High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov
Low Res (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q

By far the most well done explanation I have seen of all of this!
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BradSmith

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2018, 05:26:06 pm »


......and tell my friend he needs to profile the viewing devices


I assume he doesn't have a puck and profiling software, but that you can profile monitors.  Why not profile his for him as a part of your project?  At least that way, he will start out seeing them properly.
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saiguy

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2018, 08:47:42 pm »

BradSmith,

My friend lives 5.5 hour drive from my place. I think they plan to buy a new PC lap top for the project. I'll have them get perhaps i1Dicplay Pro. They may get a projector also. I will show them how to run the profiling process.

Thanks for your good suggestion.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 11:20:35 pm »

BradSmith,

My friend lives 5.5 hour drive from my place. I think they plan to buy a new PC lap top for the project. I'll have them get perhaps i1Dicplay Pro. They may get a projector also. I will show them how to run the profiling process.

Thanks for your good suggestion.

You should have your friend carefully review laptops for minimal change with tilt/viewing angle. Most are pretty bad at that and most have crummy gamuts lower than sRGB just to get the brightness up w/o killing battery life. Understandable compromise but a PITA for color managed apps.
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2018, 04:23:53 am »

And if the viewer has a wide gamut display, bad news. Anyone who cares a lick about color appearance has to use color management. Those who don't care don't know and don't use it,
If some viewers have a wide gamut display and they are color managed, no problems.  On the other hand if they are not color managed then bad news no matter the choice.  So if one does not know who is going to be watching how, imho all one can do is go for the highest population/probability and that is sRGB.  And deliver also a wider gamut version like ProPhoto for the professionals in the room that know what to do with it.

If on the other hand one has control of the display chain, then I would substitute sRGB with the smallest color space that encompasses the output medium's and make sure color management is properly set up.   In most cases that is either Adobe RGB or sRGB depending on monitor.  I would do this last conversion myself because I do not trust unknown software to perform it properly on the fly.

Jack
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saiguy

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2018, 07:06:58 am »



If on the other hand one has control of the display chain, then I would substitute sRGB with the smallest color space that encompasses the output medium's and make sure color management is properly set up.   In most cases that is either Adobe RGB or sRGB depending on monitor.  I would do this last conversion myself because I do not trust unknown software to perform it properly on the fly.

Jack

Was thinking to export as catalogue with masters from LR to their new quality external drive, then import that to their lap top via copy files. I assume LR will do that properly.

Hard to know how many files will have color outside ARGB.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2018, 02:13:44 pm »

Was thinking to export as catalogue with masters from LR to their new quality external drive, then import that to their lap top via copy files. I assume LR will do that properly.

Hard to know how many files will have color outside ARGB.

This is fairly easy to do with Matlab and their image toolbox. One can automate reading a long list of images, converting to sRGB then generating statistics on the dE76 (or dE00 which is a bit better). It processes over a million pixels/sec.

It shouldn't be hard to write such a program in C++. I have C++ source for a function that will crank through image comparisons producing dE00 results at the rate of 140,000,000/sec on my 7 y/o desktop. Writing the code for converting Adobe RGB or ProPhotoRGB to sRGB should be similarly as fast or faster and really shouldn't even need to use a library like Little CMS as it's quite simple.

Then it would be easy to identify those images that are most problematic and look at them specifically.
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