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Author Topic: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?  (Read 3071 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2018, 11:57:51 AM »

If some viewers have a wide gamut display and they are color managed, no problems.
Or sRGB like displays. The point is, none of it matters IF one doesn’t profile the display and use an application that understands what the scale of the numbers mean along with the display profile. Otherwise, all bets are off and that is true for any RGB color space and any gamut display.
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Andrew Rodney
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2018, 08:47:04 AM »

Or sRGB like displays. The point is, none of it matters IF one doesn’t profile the display and use an application that understands what the scale of the numbers mean along with the display profile. Otherwise, all bets are off and that is true for any RGB color space and any gamut display.

Yes, the last bit is indeed the context of this thread and my point :) 

Question is how to deliver a project to non color managed end user. ARGB or sRGB?

Non color managed end user = sRGB.  It offers the least likely chance of missing the target altogether.

Jack

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digitaldog

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2018, 10:22:08 AM »

Non color managed end user = sRGB.
Nope it's non color managed and the color appearance is totally out of that users control in such a situation and there is no guarantee of any kind of visual match to sRGB. Without Color Management, sRGB is a meaningless concept.
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Andrew Rodney
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Doug Gray

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2018, 05:02:48 PM »

Seeking advise. Not certain which color space to use as there seem to be competing benefits.

I'm doing a scan project of about 9k slides, mostly Kodachrome. I have raw scanned 4k of them to SF8 HDR thus far and will now post process those and will be delivering them via a Lightroom Catalogue when project is finished. The project will be housed on PC and likely not be color managed.

If I use ARGB they could get better prints IF they get a decent photo printer, and want to print. But may not show well on screen or via a projector.

sRGB would limit printing at home, but that may not be employed anyways. It would be safer for an uncalibrated screen/projector though.

Thanks for any input on this. Could be dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Being curious, and already having half the code, I completed a program to scan tif files in either Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB, and print a summary of what fraction of the colors, clipped to sRGB, exceed various levels measured in Delta E 2000. Here's a summary of the Roman 16 image set provided in I1Profiler and the Kodak, PDI image from DryCreek. For the latter, a second image has their added synthetic colors removed.

All the images, except the 3 black and white ones, show some fraction of dE00 clipping. Most of the Roman images are designed to stress printing and it's pretty easy to see the color shifts soft proofing them against sRGB.  The widely available PDI image has little visible change outside of the synthetics DryCreek added and the Colorchecker Cyan patch.


Image File: roman16_01_highkey.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.999979
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.000019
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.000000
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.000002

Image File: roman16_02_midtone.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.999775
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.000153
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.000034
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.000015
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.000013
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.000010

Image File: roman16_03_lowkey.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.999651
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.000141
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.000084
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.000061
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.000034
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.000027
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.000002

Image File: roman16_04_cyan.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.583319
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.027711
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.024007
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.043395
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.061867
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.209625
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.045450
Fraction of dE00 Between  7 and  8: 0.003613
Fraction of dE00 Between  8 and  9: 0.001002
Fraction of dE00 Between  9 and 10: 0.000013

Image File: roman16_05_magenta.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.880889
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.025840
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.024633
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.030432
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.028466
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.007855
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.001801
Fraction of dE00 Between  7 and  8: 0.000073
Fraction of dE00 Between  8 and  9: 0.000008
Fraction of dE00 Between  9 and 10: 0.000002

Image File: roman16_06_yellow.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.723625
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.152345
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.062822
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.028361
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.018726
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.013643
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.000477

Image File: roman16_07_red.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.705635
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.070421
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.023797
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.021342
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.025472
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.039290
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.097611
Fraction of dE00 Between  7 and  8: 0.016264
Fraction of dE00 Between  8 and  9: 0.000164
Fraction of dE00 Between  9 and 10: 0.000004

Image File: roman16_08_green.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.507498
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.034618
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.068252
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.249225
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.098253
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.030427
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.009730
Fraction of dE00 Between  7 and  8: 0.001682
Fraction of dE00 Between  8 and  9: 0.000309
Fraction of dE00 Between  9 and 10: 0.000006

Image File: roman16_09_blue.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.975537
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.006030
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.014454
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.003712
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.000216
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.000036
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.000015

Image File: roman16_10_olive.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.999515
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.000393
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.000080
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.000010
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.000002

Image File: roman16_11_brown.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.998388
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.001046
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.000382
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.000168
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.000010
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.000006

Image File: roman16_12_pastel.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.989521
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.008827
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.001144
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.000340
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.000153
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.000015

Image File: roman16_13_coloured.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.604999
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.194161
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.091016
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.063803
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.008682
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.018504
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.015707
Fraction of dE00 Between  7 and  8: 0.001398
Fraction of dE00 Between  8 and  9: 0.001081
Fraction of dE00 Between  9 and 10: 0.000575
Fraction of dE00 Between 10 and 11: 0.000067
Fraction of dE00 Between 11 and 12: 0.000002
Fraction of dE00 Between 12 and 13: 0.000002
Fraction of dE00 Between 13 and 14: 0.000002

Image File: roman16_14_highkey_BW_rgb.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 1.000000

Image File: roman16_15_midtone_BW_rgb.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 1.000000

Image File: roman16_16_lowkey_BW_rgb.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 1.000000

Image File: PDI_Target-DCP-NoSyn.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.996751
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.001693
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.000258
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.000108
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.000579
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.000069
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.000039
Fraction of dE00 Between  7 and  8: 0.000503

Image File: PDI_Target-DCP.tif
Fraction of dE00 Between  0 and  1: 0.981506
Fraction of dE00 Between  1 and  2: 0.004536
Fraction of dE00 Between  2 and  3: 0.002734
Fraction of dE00 Between  3 and  4: 0.001290
Fraction of dE00 Between  4 and  5: 0.001831
Fraction of dE00 Between  5 and  6: 0.001291
Fraction of dE00 Between  6 and  7: 0.001522
Fraction of dE00 Between  7 and  8: 0.002415
Fraction of dE00 Between  8 and  9: 0.001438
Fraction of dE00 Between  9 and 10: 0.001136
Fraction of dE00 Between 10 and 11: 0.000301

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Jack Hogan

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 08:05:25 AM »

Nope it's non color managed and the color appearance is totally out of that users control in such a situation and there is no guarantee of any kind of visual match to sRGB. Without Color Management, sRGB is a meaningless concept.

I agree, I am just not sure why you would waste our time and increase confusion by writing that in the context of the question I was answering for the OP:

Non color managed end user = sRGB.  It offers the least likely chance of missing the target altogether.

That's a pretty clear, constructive answer, as for yours...  Here's a practical question that goes to the heart of the matter: if we chose a random sample of the video systems of the population at large and put the same sample image through all of them as they are set up, do you think rendering and tagging it in ProPhoto or Adobe RGB would produce better average deltaExx than sRGB?

You know which way I am leaning :)

Jack
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digitaldog

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 10:58:38 AM »

I agree, I am just not sure why you would waste our time and increase confusion by writing that in the context of the question I was answering for the OP:
I may be wasting your time, just speak for yourself. Ditto about your possible confusions.
Quote

That's a pretty clear, constructive answer, as for yours...  Here's a practical question that goes to the heart of the matter: if we chose a random sample of the video systems of the population at large and put the same sample image through all of them as they are set up, do you think rendering and tagging it in ProPhoto or Adobe RGB would produce better average deltaExx than sRGB?
Yes clear and correct. As to your question and an analogous scenario whereby by picking random people and asking them to throw darts at a board blindfolded, how many may hit the center: some may, some may not; there's no guarantee. EXACTLY the same expecting sRGB without a tag to be understood as sRGB. No guarantee and worse, a guarantee of being wrong on some systems like mine, with out CM. Images in ANY color space can only preview as expected with Color Management. That's a fact you can accept or deny. R45/G69/B149 is a different color in sRGB, Adobe RGB (1998) or ProPhoto RGB on EVERY system you asked about above and can ONLY be properly viewed WITH Color Management.

Non color managed end user does NOT = sRGB. It equals RGB mystery meat. I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it.

Jim answered the OP's question before you and I got here FWIW!
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Andrew Rodney
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 12:47:20 PM »

Jim answered the OP's question before you and I got here FWIW!

Yes, that was a pretty good answer.  I was however responding to a more direct question that the OP asked later on.

Anyways no harm done, I am still a dog fan ;)

Jack
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Doug Gray

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 01:55:13 AM »

Nope it's non color managed and the color appearance is totally out of that users control in such a situation and there is no guarantee of any kind of visual match to sRGB. Without Color Management, sRGB is a meaningless concept.
Cheap portable computers using backlit displays may be better left w/o profiling. I measured one of my laptops and the red is about 25% less saturated than sRGB's primary. Profiled, it clips reds that go beyond its capability. I actually had to use Photoshop's "desaturate" option to bring back clipped red/orange colors that are in sRGB but can't be displayed with my more limited screen.

This is a result of the push for longer battery life because they reach higher brightness for a given backlight intensity with broader RGB filters. So for this laptop, I just removed the profile. Colors are off but at least it's not clipping places I didn't expect.  OTOH, I don't use it for color work. Too sensitive to viewing angle as well.

Newer generation, and more expensive oled screens don't have that problem - or so I've heard. Maybe they will increase the demand for color management.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Deliver 9000 scanned slides in ARGB or sRGB ?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2018, 01:45:02 AM »

The attached program displays percentages of pixels that, when converted from either Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB to sRGB have their color values clipped in Delta E 2000 steps. For instance if we take all 16M colors in the Adobe RGB space, convert them to sRGB and compare them with Delta E 2000, 61.64% are changed less than 1 Delta E 2000. Another 7% are changed between 1 and 2 Delta E 2000.

Regular photos typically undergo much smaller changes. The supplied, size decreased, venerable KodaK DISC test image as modified by DryCreek has 97.88% of it's colors effectively unchanged and those that are changed are mostly in the added synthetic color gradients added by DryCreek.

The program runs on Windows XP and above. The c++ file as well as executables are included. Source code includes functions for Delta E 2000, converting RGB to XYZ and LAB, and clipping against sRGB. The DLLs must be in the same directory as the executable. Standard wild cards may be used like so which will list the statistics for images matching myimage*.tif that are in Adobe RGB:

tiffreader -1 myimage*.tif



Usage: tiffcolor [-profile#] image1 ... image
       profile#: 0 for ProPhoto RGB (default)
                 1 for AdobeRGB
       image[...] tiff image(s)

Example:
  tiffcolor ProPhotoImage1.tif ProPhotoImage2.tif -1 adobeImage1.tif -0 ProPhotoImage3.tif

The special image name 'RGB' can be used to show the dE00 distribution of Adobe or ProPhoto RGB from sRGB


The following example shows the dE00 change distribution for the RGB space and a KodaK test image.



tiffreader -1 RGB PDI_Target-DCP_small.tif

output:
Image File: RGB
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  1: 0.616422
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  2: 0.685365
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  3: 0.732556
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  4: 0.769466
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  5: 0.806518
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  6: 0.843115
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  7: 0.881229
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  8: 0.922590
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  9: 0.957754
Fraction of dE00 Less Than 10: 0.988474
Fraction of dE00 Less Than 11: 1.000000

Image File: PDI_Target-DCP_small.tif
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  1: 0.978808
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  2: 0.984694
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  3: 0.988338
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  4: 0.990169
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  5: 0.991774
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  6: 0.993123
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  7: 0.994676
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  8: 0.997110
Fraction of dE00 Less Than  9: 0.998611
Fraction of dE00 Less Than 10: 0.999702
Fraction of dE00 Less Than 11: 1.000000
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 01:49:06 AM by Doug Gray »
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