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Author Topic: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others  (Read 4417 times)

BJL

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 07:49:18 PM »

... it seems that a majority of posters at Nikon rumors would also have preferred a FF offering according to an on-going survey.
Disappointment at Nikon Rumors is not surprising, but surely you recognize that participants in photography-oriented forums like NR are a severely skewed sample of potential camera system customers as a whole: skewed towards lower volume, higher end gear, and towards backward compatibility more than future market success. An amusing and telling part of the survey responses is that, after "full frame or no sale!", the other most popular response is the quixotic desire for the new system to stay with F-mount.
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/01/nikon-mirrorless-camera-poll-results.aspx/
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 09:11:58 PM »

Disappointment at Nikon Rumors is not surprising, but surely you recognize that participants in photography-oriented forums like NR are a severely skewed sample of potential camera system customers as a whole: skewed towards lower volume, higher end gear, and towards backward compatibility more than future market success. An amusing and telling part of the survey responses is that, after "full frame or no sale!", the other most popular response is the quixotic desire for the new system to stay with F-mount.
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/01/nikon-mirrorless-camera-poll-results.aspx/

Indeed, but I believe that this may be result of various rumors having been circulated about the ability to mount F mount lenses thanks to an adapter.

Cheers,
Bernard

Two23

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 09:36:52 PM »

What would be the reason to buy an "FF" Nikon mirrorless, unless it was noticeably smaller than what's currently available?  We already have great cameras such as the D8xx series.  If a mirrorless camera is neither much smaller nor having better AF nor having better image quality, what would be the motivation to buy it?  I am happy with the D8xx series for the times I want maximum performance.  What Nikon isn't giving me is a small camera with small lenses for travel.  At one time this was Nikon's forte--the Nikon SP camera and its small buy highly competitive lens selection.



Kent in SD
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2018, 12:05:34 AM »

What would be the reason to buy an "FF" Nikon mirrorless, unless it was noticeably smaller than what's currently available?  We already have great cameras such as the D8xx series.  If a mirrorless camera is neither much smaller nor having better AF nor having better image quality, what would be the motivation to buy it?  I am happy with the D8xx series for the times I want maximum performance.  What Nikon isn't giving me is a small camera with small lenses for travel.  At one time this was Nikon's forte--the Nikon SP camera and its small buy highly competitive lens selection.

The same reason people buy a7rIII instead of D850?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 01:21:33 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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HSakols

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2018, 08:56:32 AM »

Before nikon ever introduces a FF Mirrorless camera, they need to come up with a lighter option of their 24-70 zoom.  How about a more compact f4 zoom perfect for landscape photographers.  The 70-200 f4 is a real gem!  Until then, for mirrorless I grab my Olympus because it is significantly smaller and I hate to say, but the lenses are sharper than any of my Nikon lenses.
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Two23

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2018, 09:09:16 AM »

The same reason people buy a7rIII instead of D850?


Smaller lenses?


Kent in SD
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DP

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2018, 09:29:17 AM »

You made me curious, what exactly is Fuji missing as "pro" lenses that m43 provides?

"pro series of native 1.2 and 1.4 prime lenses" ... are you able to count 1.2 lenses yourself

M43 : M.ZUIKO ED 17MM F1.2 PRO - weather proof, M.ZUIKO ED 25MM F1.2 PRO - weather proof, M.ZUIKO ED 45MM F1.2 PRO - weather proof, Panasonic 42.5/1.2 non weather sealed (but w/ OIS that can work along IBIS too in their recent cameras)
Fuji :  2 x XF56mmF1.2 lenses (same lens - with and w/o apodization) - neither weather proof


Fuji : 1.4 - only XF16mmF1.4 R WR is weather proof, XF23mm F1.4 R and XF35mm F1.4 R - both are non weather proof)
M43 : 12/1.4 from Panasonic and  25/1.4 from Panasonic - both non weather proof

so which one looks like a "pro series of native 1.2 and 1.4 prime lenses" here ... more so most of Fuji bright (1.2/1.4) lenses are primitive 7 blade ugly bokeh designs - one only has 9 -  if I am not mistaken only "XF16mmF1.4 R WR"...

 ;D
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DP

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2018, 10:26:16 AM »

What would be the reason to buy an "FF" Nikon mirrorless

I'd say if C 'd make  a FF dSLM with IBIS & EFCS I 'd consider switching from Sony FF dSLM to Canon FF dSLM ... I only use few primes (35mm-5*mm-85/90mm) and Canon simply has a better support for example from 3rd party strobe/flash vendors...

We already have great cameras such as the D8xx series.

it depends... dumb OVF, mirror slapping, shutter shocking, etc dSLRs are not great for some of us

If a mirrorless camera is neither much smaller nor having better AF

unless you are a sports/BIF - blog.kasson.com shows very well why you dSLR like 850 does not make sense AF-wise - you are not getting 45mp out of it - unless you put it on a tripod and start using it in live view mode

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2018, 12:47:09 PM »

I have hundreds of tack sharp hand held images shot with the d850 with the most demanding lenses available (Otus, 105mm f1.4,...).

And I know what sharp means since my reference is 100mp MFDB shot on Arca with the best Rodenstock lens on the most stable tripod and head there is. ;)

It is down to using a proper shutter speed and shooting technique and to performing proper AF calibration.

There are good reasons to think that mirrorless is the right strategic direction, but letís not kill DSLRs for the wrong ones. ;)

Besides, how about a very high quality 600mm f5.6 that is only 33cm long? That is a true game changer IMHO. The F mount isnít dead yet. https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/01/the-latest-nikon-patents-400mm-500mm-and-600mm-f-5-6-phase-fresnel-pf-lenses.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 01:01:33 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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DP

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2018, 02:01:45 PM »

I have hundreds of tack sharp

 ;D ... but I'd take Kasson's definition of "tack sharp" any day or night - because his is quantified and testing protocol detailed - yours is just "he says, she says"...


And I know what sharp means since my reference is 100mp MFDB shot on Arca with the best Rodenstock lens on the most stable tripod and head there is. ;)

no, you don't Bernard ... see above

Besides, how about a very high quality 600mm f5.6 that is only 33cm long?

which any dSLM out there can use just fine

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2018, 03:01:56 PM »

;D ... but I'd take Kasson's definition of "tack sharp" any day or night - because his is quantified and testing protocol detailed - yours is just "he says, she says"...

no, you don't Bernard ... see above

which any dSLM out there can use just fine

There is just one little flaw in your logic, you have not seen my files. ;) The only logical conclusion you can draw from the facts at hand is that, when Jim shoots handheld, he is not able to reach the same level of sharpness he can reach when using a tripod. The generalization you are making from this fact is just that, a generalization.



As far as small sensors based cameras giving access to long equivalent focal lengths easily, yes as a former Nikon 1 owner, I am aware. What is game changing is having access to this in front of one of best FF sensors there is.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 09:07:08 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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armand

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2018, 03:02:36 PM »

"pro series of native 1.2 and 1.4 prime lenses" ... are you able to count 1.2 lenses yourself

M43 : M.ZUIKO ED 17MM F1.2 PRO - weather proof, M.ZUIKO ED 25MM F1.2 PRO - weather proof, M.ZUIKO ED 45MM F1.2 PRO - weather proof, Panasonic 42.5/1.2 non weather sealed (but w/ OIS that can work along IBIS too in their recent cameras)
Fuji :  2 x XF56mmF1.2 lenses (same lens - with and w/o apodization) - neither weather proof


Fuji : 1.4 - only XF16mmF1.4 R WR is weather proof, XF23mm F1.4 R and XF35mm F1.4 R - both are non weather proof)
M43 : 12/1.4 from Panasonic and  25/1.4 from Panasonic - both non weather proof

so which one looks like a "pro series of native 1.2 and 1.4 prime lenses" here ... more so most of Fuji bright (1.2/1.4) lenses are primitive 7 blade ugly bokeh designs - one only has 9 -  if I am not mistaken only "XF16mmF1.4 R WR"...

 ;D

You sound like a fanboy here .
Besides m43 released most of those "pro" primes in the last year or so I wasn't aware that a "pro" prime has to be weather sealed.
Those m43 F1.2 look nice but quite more expensive compared to Fuji. Oh, btw 1.2 is quite above 1.4 for dof.
Bokeh wise, I don't know if Oly are really that great but Fuji are quite decent. 16, 56 and 90 are very good, 23 is good, 35 is imperfect but special.

For the record I use both and full frame but I have yet to find a reason to buy those heavy and expensive primes if I have them on Fuji side.

Fuji started several years after m43, they are doing quite well considering.

PS. today I wish I have my E-M5 with 12-40 or 12-100 not to worry as much about the pouring rain
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 03:07:15 PM by armand »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2018, 03:16:39 PM »

In my view both Olympus and Fuji produce some of the best primes in any format.

The look of these is special.

Cheers,
Bernard

armand

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2018, 03:18:52 PM »

I forgot to add, I would have been closer to agreeing with your statement if you were going to mention their pro zooms, where Fuji need to do better than the current 16-55 and they have yet to plan for a competion to 12-100 (I would take a 16-70/85). They do have a plan to get a 8-16 F2.8 out I think.

PS. This in reply to DP not Bernard :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 03:22:19 PM by armand »
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2018, 04:43:49 AM »

Smaller lenses?


Kent in SD

If you want to have 2.8 zooms... they have more or less the same size and weight than the Canon or Nikon DSLR equivalents. In wide angles, in some primes (lower than f1.4) and some zooms (f4 and lower), yes you get smaller sizes...



http://dgpfotografia.com

Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2018, 04:53:10 AM »

My lenses are sharper than your lenses, ner, ner, ner, ner, ner. So there.

Moving on, any update on the Nikon mirrorless?

John Camp

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2018, 11:14:45 PM »

I have a couple of Panny GX8s and a Nikon D800. The GX8 viewfinder is probably one of the best available, but the D800 optical is better (for me, anyway.) For me, that means that a mirrorless Nikon has got to have *something* that is distinctly different than what they already have, or what's the point? I would think that at a minimum, the camera would have to be much more compact and lighter and still weather sealed. The next step would be smaller lenses, with a new modern mount and what we think of as "pro" specs. I think those lenses may be hinted at in Thom's speculation.

What I'd really like to see is a modernization of the whole Nikon system, but I doubt that we'll ever see it. Nikon doesn't think that way -- they have a whole culture of upgrading, rather than of revolution. The FF aspect ratio, for example, is an artifact of antique film cameras -- they should get rid of it. Go to a 4:3 aspect ratio with a sensor bigger than the m4/3 series, some kind of automatically-engaged software that would create quick panoramas for landscape photographers who want a wider aspect ratio (with maybe a tripod head to go with it) all in a camera without a fake pentaprism housing, and about the size of the Leica 10. I don't see that happening.

As an aside, I've looked at various examples of Bernard's photos over quite a few years now. That somebody should suggest that Bernard doesn't know what tack-sharp means, is laughable.

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armand

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2018, 11:33:36 PM »

Sony just released the A7iii with pretty impressive specs. Nikon is nowhere and I'm not sure they won't be too late to the party.
On APS-C there is Fuji, Sony and Canon with very good offerings while on full-frame Sony is already at the 3rd generation.

PS. I do foresee another sale on Nikon D750
PPS. on many things m43 can give a run for the money for APS-C, so you can add those too

DP

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2018, 01:14:53 AM »


On APS-C there is Fuji, Sony and Canon with very good offerings while on full-frame Sony is already at the 3rd generation.

Sony almost abandoned APS-C in favor of FF - no effort/spare resources to pump out various body and APS-C E mount lenses... so it is Fuji and Canon (not fully in yet)

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armand

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Re: Nikon's next mirrorless system: speculation from Thom Hogan and others
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2018, 02:14:48 AM »

You posted the same comment in a different topic and I disagree. Their offerings on APS-C bodies are class competitive and while they lack some lenses compared to Fuji they are competitive compared to Nikon. Their handling is not the best but I think itís more because they are Sony not because they donít care.
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