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Author Topic: Which Printer for Black and White?  (Read 28458 times)

Jeff-Grant

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2018, 03:27:55 pm »

To use flush to hibernate a printer, you need to flush the ink lines. That's a lot of ink or flush each time that you do it, and you may need to do two to get the ink back fully after having flush in. It's doable but at a cost. That's why I went for a printer with on-head carts which is another set of challenges.
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Jasper

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2018, 04:02:52 pm »

Can anyone answer my previously posted questions?
  • Are ICC profiles for printer/paper/ink readily available (and if so from where) or do you need to make or purchase your own?  Having used both custom and canned color profiles in the past, I have been satisfied with the canned ones, so if available I would use these initially.
  • Anything else needs to be purchased - e.g. Inkjet Mall has 'Piezography Professional Edition Software' at $150 - is this required or helpful?
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digitaldog

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2018, 04:49:29 pm »

Having used both custom and canned color profiles in the past, I have been satisfied with the canned ones, so if available I would use these initially.
Not all ICC profiles, canned profiles are created equally, even from the same company:

Not all ICC profiles are created equally

In this 23 minute video, I'll cover:
The basic anatomy of ICC Profiles
Why there are differences in profile quality and color rendering
How to evaluate an ICC output profile
Examples of good and not so good canned profiles and custom profiles on actual printed output.

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Not_All_Profiles_are_created_equally.mp4
Low resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNdR_tIFMME&feature=youtu.be
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Jasper

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2018, 05:09:00 pm »

Not all ICC profiles, canned profiles are created equally, even from the same company

I know not all ICC profiles are created equally, however that wasn't my question.  I was asking whether profiles are available for Piezography inks on various printers/papers, and if so from where (e.g. url).  It is unclear from your response whether or not they are available or whether I would need to create (or purchase) my own.
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2018, 05:11:36 pm »

If you are using Peizography, you will be printing with QTR. QTR uses curves, not ICC profiles. InkjetMall provides curves for their inks and papers.
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digitaldog

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2018, 05:54:16 pm »

I know not all ICC profiles are created equally, however that wasn't my question.  I was asking whether profiles are available for Piezography inks on various printers/papers, and if so from where (e.g. url).  It is unclear from your response whether or not they are available or whether I would need to create (or purchase) my own.
If you can make them, using good hardware and software make them! If you can't, and had you viewed the video, you'd see a major printer company providing two groups of ICC profiles, one set very good, one set not so good. That proves that your question cannot be answered without similar specific testing. So the answer as of now is, maybe and it depends. Because not all ICC profiles are created equally.
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Jasper

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2018, 06:09:59 pm »

If you can make them, using good hardware and software make them! If you can't, and had you viewed the video, you'd see a major printer company providing two groups of ICC profiles, one set very good, one set not so good. That proves that your question cannot be answered without similar specific testing. So the answer as of now is, maybe and it depends. Because not all ICC profiles are created equally.

Thanks Jeff.  Just looked up QTR.  Am I right is stating that QTR includes the curve creator SW and I will be able to create my own paper/ink-specific curve using a flatbed scanner, without the need to purchase a densitometer/spectrophotometer?  Would be good if I can use the scanner to see if I can get good results without having to purchase the spectrophotometer.

So far my shopping list is therefore (i) Printer (ii) Refillable Cartridges, (iii) Ink, (iv) QTR.  Is that it or is anything else needed?  Any idea what the purpose of the Inkjet Mall 'Piezography Professional Edition Software' is?
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2018, 06:24:59 pm »

I've always had the spectro, and have never looked at doing it any other way. I can't imagine how you might do it but I would ask on the QTR forum on Yahoo groups. I see it as a mandatory piece of equipment. Inks and printers drift over time so you will need to measure and relinearise occasionally. Being a little off is a lot more obvious with B&W than colour.

You can build curves with QTR but I would suggest that you use Richard Boutwell's new curve creation software for K3.

If you are on a Mac, you will need PrintTool which is available on the QTR site.

I haven't looked at the IJM Professional stuff. I have all the tools that I need already.

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digitaldog

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2018, 06:53:11 pm »

Inks and printers drift over time so you will need to measure and relinearise occasionally.
I've never seen this after more than a decade and a half of measuring output from a lot of them (mostly Epson but you name a produce, I probably have measurement data). I built ICC profiles for Epson for Exhibition Fiber years ago* for the R2400, 4880,7880,9880 and 11880. I output 5000 patch targets to half a dozen printers of the same model with locations printing my targets spreed throughout the US. The average dE of the 5000 patches was never above 0.5! That's extremely tight colorimetric behavior!

Now maybe with the 3rd party inks you guys are discussing, you're seeing ink inconsistency and drifting. Which is why I'd never use em!  :D


* http://www.pixelgenius.com/epson/
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2018, 07:27:53 pm »


Now maybe with the 3rd party inks you guys are discussing, you're seeing ink inconsistency and drifting. Which is why I'd never use em!  :D


* http://www.pixelgenius.com/epson/

Andrew,
It's part of the price that you pay for using 3rd part inks. They tend to settle.
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digitaldog

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2018, 07:36:35 pm »

Andrew,
It's part of the price that you pay for using 3rd part inks. They tend to settle.
So the inks cost less but you're saying they are less consistent? I'm not auguring that is or isn't the case, I've never nor ever would put 3rd party inks in my printers (most of which, I've never paid for so it's not a warranty/price issue that keeps me away).


What I can and did provide was data on how consistent Epson printers are from unit to unit with a group of differing models. I also have plenty of trending colorimetric data for individual printers too. They don't drift. Again, stating that inks and printers drift over time simply isn't the case with Epson pro printers with their ink. If that's what you see from Epson's using non Epson inks, your comments are interesting but I’d be somewhat careful about lumping the printer hardware into that inconsistency; my measurement data shows the opposite using all Epson inks and hardware/
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2018, 09:26:25 pm »

Like you, I have never used anything other than Epson inks for colour. What I was referring to was the use of 3rd party black insets, specifically Cone Piezography inks. On the subject of drift, I can not say categorically what causes it but I can say that linearity drifts over time. It may be the ink, the paper, the printer, humidity, temperature or whatever combination of them but linearity does shift. I measure with an i1Pro2 on an i1io2 in 2 pass spot mode on a 21x4 target, and then map it in Excel. It may not be much but I'm sufficiently anal to like straight line linearity.
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digitaldog

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2018, 09:43:26 pm »

Like you, I have never used anything other than Epson inks for colour. What I was referring to was the use of 3rd party black insets, specifically Cone Piezography inks. On the subject of drift, I can not say categorically what causes it but I can say that linearity drifts over time. It may be the ink, the paper, the printer, humidity, temperature or whatever combination of them but linearity does shift.
Well based on my work with a lot of printers, and specifically with Epson's, gotta be the 3rd party ink! When I built the profiles for Epson, humidity, temperature or whatever combination differed by design. Of course, same paper, same ink set. Very, very consistent between devices of the same model. And, since ICC Profiles, unlike cheese doesn't age or change, if using the same combo, there should be minimal drift and it should be visually insignificant. At least based on the sample, small is it may be, that I evaluated in order to build those profiles.
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2018, 02:30:11 pm »

... Well based on my work with a lot of printers, and specifically with Epson's...

I'm curious Andrew, if you have data from three or more different Epsons and / Canons of the same model using the same media as to how they were calibrated when you measured them. Were they the same? L* medium gray for example. These measurements might be a good start when considering a printer for B&W.
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digitaldog

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2018, 02:54:14 pm »

I'm curious Andrew, if you have data from three or more different Epsons and / Canons of the same model using the same media as to how they were calibrated when you measured them. Were they the same? L* medium gray for example. These measurements might be a good start when considering a printer for B&W.
There's nothing to calibrate in terms of the series of printers from Epson who's profiles I built. All calibrated at factory, all brand spanking new. As for Lstar, for medium gray (with 5000 patches, I suspect one is close), again, the average dE over 5K patches was less than 0.5. I can try to dug up the measurement data and get a dE of as close to that value as I can find and compare two or three printers measurement values. But I suspect they will be invisible.
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digitaldog

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2018, 03:06:11 pm »

I quickly dug up one report for the 2880, you can see the max 10% dE is 1.14 and the old MeasureTool shows, if you look closely that the one worst patch, outlined in red is in the middle row or patches on the very far left. 10% of the worst are outlined in yellow. You seen the group of neutrals in the lower right corner only show three. I'd have to load up this software on an older Mac to hover those three neutrals to provide a dE of each but again, with the entire 10% of the worst patches being a mere 1.14, I'm going to suspect the grays outlined are pretty small.
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2018, 03:50:33 pm »

...I'm sufficiently anal to like straight line linearity.

Hello Jeff,

When you arrive at a straight line, do you consider the tone to be absolutely neutral (true gray, possibly boring) or a rather a particular tone reminiscent of another era or flavor of B&W fiber paper?
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2018, 03:53:21 pm »

I quickly dug up one report for the 2880, you can see the max 10% dE is 1.14...

So what is the time frame between these two measurement samples?
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digitaldog

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2018, 03:55:27 pm »

So what is the time frame between these two measurement samples?
At least several days as they were sent to me from around the US.
Oh and you guys can forget linearity IF you're using the Epson driver. Better than it was in the Epson 1200 days but not close to linear behavior. Despite many of us trying to convince Epson Japan otherwise and decades ago.
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2018, 04:08:27 pm »

Oh and you guys can forget linearity IF you're using the Epson driver.

How about when using Epson's AWB option?
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