Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Which Printer for Black and White?  (Read 28468 times)

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2018, 04:19:49 pm »

How about when using Epson's AWB option?
To be honest, I have no idea as I haven't measured anything out of Advanced B&W. It's not part of the print path for creating color profiles. I'd be pretty surprised IF it was linear or close to linear while printing color isn't. I'm under the impression it's more linear but close doesn't count does it?  ;D  And then there are differing gamma settings one can select there, again, under the hood, not sure how that affects linearly. But in color, you want linear output, you're not getting it with the Epson driver. I can ping someone at Epson who can give an honest answer, measure something, or perhaps Schewe knows and can speak of Advanced B&W.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

datro

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 231
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2018, 05:17:22 pm »

Thanks Jeff.  Just looked up QTR.  Am I right is stating that QTR includes the curve creator SW and I will be able to create my own paper/ink-specific curve using a flatbed scanner, without the need to purchase a densitometer/spectrophotometer?  Would be good if I can use the scanner to see if I can get good results without having to purchase the spectrophotometer.

I think some points of clarification are needed in this thread (and to get it back on topic):

Piezography inks (from InkjetMall) and QTR (from Roy Harrington) are separate products from different providers.  If you implement a Piezography B&W system you will get your inks and curves from InkjetMall and you will use QTR as the print application (at least for now).

Regarding the curves (not ICCs) which are used with QTR to control how ink is laid down on the paper from each channel:

QTR does provide curves and curve creation tools for non-Piezography users who want to print with either OEM inks (e.g. K, LK, LLK) or other 3rd-party inks in their printers.  These curves and tools are NOT used with Piezography.

InkjetMall/Piezography provides the curves if you plan to use Piezography inks with QTR.  These curves are provided as part of the "Piezography Community Edition" download on their website here.

You have the option of purchasing an additional product from InkjetMall called the "Piezography Professional Edition" (PPE) which is a collection of tools and documentation which allows you to go more advanced with the curves, including full linearization to your specific printer and to make curves for papers which are not included in Piezography's "supported papers" list.  PPE requires a spectro if you want to get the full benefit of the tools.

If you are considering Piezography, the place to start is to download the Piezography Community Edition (link above) and READ THE MANUAL.  While the Piezography system definitely has the capacity to produce exceptional B&W prints, it is NOT plug and play like ABW and requires some investment in learning about the inks, the QTR software, and how to properly convert and manage your Epson printer for Piezography.
Logged

Jeff-Grant

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • http://www.jeff-grant.com
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2018, 05:20:17 pm »

Hello Jeff,

When you arrive at a straight line, do you consider the tone to be absolutely neutral (true gray, possibly boring) or a rather a particular tone reminiscent of another era or flavor of B&W fiber paper?

Hello Stephen,

Linearity is only measured on the L channel. All you are doing is getting a consistent change in luminosity from one patch to the next. Here's a measurement in Excel showing ideal and actual.
Logged
Cheers,
 Jeff  www.jeff-grant.com

Jeff-Grant

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • http://www.jeff-grant.com
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2018, 10:19:51 pm »

How about when using Epson's AWB option?

More info than you could possibly want on ABW: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=104907.0
Logged
Cheers,
 Jeff  www.jeff-grant.com

Jasper

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2018, 06:52:49 am »

You have the option of purchasing an additional product from InkjetMall called the "Piezography Professional Edition" (PPE) which is a collection of tools and documentation which allows you to go more advanced with the curves, including full linearization to your specific printer and to make curves for papers which are not included in Piezography's "supported papers" list.  PPE requires a spectro if you want to get the full benefit of the tools.

I've been reading other information on other threads and sites.  Sounds like there are a number of different tools and methods available to create ones own curves (which I want to be able to do).  With regards to 'measuring devices' I have seen tutorials for two options: (i) using high-quality scanner and (ii) using spectro.

The scanner method requires a reflective target (Q-13).  Has anyone used this method and compared with 'higher quality' methods?  Does it produce a good profile (where a real print made with this method would compare favorably with one made from a spectro-curve)?

For the spectro method,  would a SpyderPrint produce a good profile?  Or is it necessary to spend the extra $ on an eye1 (which I would rather not do unless Spyder is unacceptable)?
Logged

richardboutwell

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
    • Black and White Mastery
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2018, 08:38:03 am »

I’ve been following this,  it have been too busy to respond. Ive been making a lot of ABW QTR and Dedicated black and white tests but haven’t written up the results yet.

The scanner method is actually pretty good with the qtr stelwedge tool. It is limited to 21 steps so you might be a little constrained in what you can do. The Spyder is not a great device but it will get you by. If you want to do a lot of papers you’re going to want something that measures in scan mode and not have to push the button for each sample. A used i1 pro 1 is the best option there


About needing the PPE tools: unless you are planning on getting the PiezoPro inks, you might want to take a look at my tools instead (the PPE tools has something different for blending the toning curves that I don’t get into), but for editing and linearizing QTR curves, I think my tools are a good alternative (in not better in some ways).

Here’s a link: https://www.bwmastery.com/quadtoneprofiler/

The QuadLin tools will do everything the PPE does without the QTR-linearize-quad runaround and it allows you to make those kinds of advabced curves in 1 step rather than 2. My system also a little more affordable and not a yearly license (and you get a year of free support and upgrades). My QuadToneProfiler-Pro tools will even do more like allow you to make your own master curves for different kinds of ink sets if you ever want to go that route too.
Logged
Personal Site — http://www.richardboutwell.com
Black and White Aesthetics, Editing, and Printing — http://www.BWMastery.com

guido

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 667
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2018, 08:45:50 am »

Richard, I'm quite interested in your tool but am not an Excel user. Any chance of a version that works with Libre Office Calc?

Thanks!

guido
Logged

richardboutwell

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
    • Black and White Mastery
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2018, 09:11:28 am »

No, the open office suite doesn’t allow for the kinds of custom fucntions and interface stuff I built. I am working on a native macOS app that will replace the excel for Mac version though. That is still some time from being released though.
Logged
Personal Site — http://www.richardboutwell.com
Black and White Aesthetics, Editing, and Printing — http://www.BWMastery.com

patjoja

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2018, 11:00:49 am »

GETTING THIS THREAD BACK ON TOPIC!

I'm still asking the question:  Which Printer for Black and White?

Right now the two choices are betweem Epson using ABW and Canon's BW mode.

From what I've been reading the New Epson printers using Ultrachrome HD k3 inks may produce better BW prints than the older Ultrachrome K3 inks.  Also, Canon has come out with their new P1000 with Lucia Pro inks.  They claim

"Deep Blacks
Detailed Graduations
With 11-color inks, including a newly formulated blue and magenta, plus the Chroma Optimizer ink, produce superior printouts on which dark blue areas are clearly defined to express your printed photography with the power of nuance.

Achieve a wider color gamut and richer details in darker shadowed areas for the finest details in nightscapes and sunsets. Also change media types from glossy to fine art paper seamlessly with a dedicated nozzle for Matte Black and Photo Black."

That sounds impressive, but is it true?  Should I upgrade to a Canon Pro-1000 or an Epson P800?  For this discussion, I'm not interested in QuadTone or other forms of torture...just the best that BW prints that can be had as is.

:-)

Thanks kindly,

Patrick

Patrick
Logged

richardboutwell

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
    • Black and White Mastery
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2018, 11:22:58 am »

GETTING THIS THREAD BACK ON TOPIC!

I'm still asking the question:  Which Printer for Black and White?

Should I upgrade to a Canon Pro-1000 or an Epson P800?  For this discussion, I'm not interested in QuadTone or other forms of torture...just the best that BW prints that can be had as is.


P800, so you can still have the option of using QTR when you discover the color driver and ABW doesn't do it for you.
Logged
Personal Site — http://www.richardboutwell.com
Black and White Aesthetics, Editing, and Printing — http://www.BWMastery.com

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2018, 11:59:35 am »

P800, so you can still have the option of using QTR when you discover the color driver and ABW doesn't do it for you.
Or when it works splendidly as it does for so many of us! ::)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 12:04:33 pm by digitaldog »
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

patjoja

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2018, 12:10:30 pm »

P800, so you can still have the option of using QTR when you discover the color driver and ABW doesn't do it for you.

When I said QTR was torture, I really meant it. :-)  I've been attempting to learn it for the past two weeks and I think I'm finally giving up.  I've yet to find a beginners guide to using it, even a simple overview of the process is lacking.  The learning curve is too steep for me.  I listened to your youtube article and everything you do is for the experienced printer....you may not realize how many rabbit trails you created I've had to track down.  The "user guide" with QTR causes more questions than it answers and there are far too many steps required to calibrate the printer and papers.

I've literally printed several dozens of test prints, including using QTR with their standard neut on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the ABW print came out far better and more neutral.

I will not be using QTR, so I will not be choosing the Epson based solely on the possibility of using it.  If the Epson P800 can produce better black and white prints with ABW then fine.  However, from everything I'm reading the Canon Pro-1000 seems to be winning that battle. 

Patrick
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 02:29:34 pm by patjoja »
Logged

patjoja

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2018, 02:34:42 pm »

When I said QTR was torture, I really meant it. :-)  I've been attempting to learn it for the past two weeks and I think I'm finally giving up.  I've yet to find a beginners guide to using it, even a simple overview of the process is lacking.  The learning curve is too steep for me.  I listened to your youtube article and everything you do is for the experienced printer....you may not realize how many rabbit trails you created I've had to track down.  The "user guide" with QTR causes more questions than it answers and there are far too many steps required to calibrate the printer and papers.

I've literally printed several dozens of test prints, including using QTR with their standard neut on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the ABW print came out far better and more neutral.

I will not be using QTR, so I will not be choosing the Epson based solely on the possibility of using it.  If the Epson P800 can produce better black and white prints with ABW then fine.  However, from everything I'm reading the Canon Pro-1000 seems to be winning that battle. 

Patrick

Having said all that, on the previous generation of printers (of which I have both, Canon and Epson (Pro-1 and 3880)), in my test prints, the Epson came out a little bit better using ABW vs BW modes...just a touch more detail in the shadows and highlights.

Patrick
Logged

Frodo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 152
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2018, 03:23:59 pm »

When I said QTR was torture, I really meant it. :-)  I've been attempting to learn it for the past two weeks and I think I'm finally giving up.  I've yet to find a beginners guide to using it, even a simple overview of the process is lacking.  The learning curve is too steep for me.  I listened to your youtube article and everything you do is for the experienced printer....you may not realize how many rabbit trails you created I've had to track down.  The "user guide" with QTR causes more questions than it answers and there are far too many steps required to calibrate the printer and papers.
<snip>
Patrick

Amen! This echoes my exploration of QTR.  From a wet darkroom photographer decades ago, I have just bought a reasonably serious printer, a P600 (in hindsight a P800 would have been better due to access to more roll papers and larger print options).  I selected the P600 (P800) on the basis of better black and white, but this was from reading lots of (often opinionated) reviews rather than hands-on trials. 

I think that there is a lot for me to learn in terms of nailing exposure (my main camera is a Canon 5DsR that has less exposure latitude than some Sonys and Nikon, but more than its web reputation), post-processing, playing with ABW options and paper selection before move to something as complex as QTR.  I have not mentioned "subject", 'composition" and "timing" - those plus good ABW printing will sell prints or at least give me artistic satisfaction.  I suspect it is geeks like us in this forum who look at the last few percent.

Frankly I would rather spend the time behind the camera than in front of a computer.
Logged

patjoja

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2018, 04:09:50 pm »

I have not mentioned "subject", 'composition" and "timing" - those plus good ABW printing will sell prints or at least give me artistic satisfaction.  I suspect it is geeks like us in this forum who look at the last few percent.

Frankly I would rather spend the time behind the camera than in front of a computer.

Yes, I agree.  Most people would be extremely hard pressed to see the difference. 

Once again...this thread has gone off track... :-(

Patrick
Logged

Jasper

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2018, 04:55:10 pm »

I was in the same boat as you - I wanted new printer solely for B+W.  My previous printer was a HP Z3100 and the B+W prints from that were fine.  I wasn't totally impressed with shadow detailed, but overall they were pretty good quality.  Unfortunately it died!

I read quite a bit on the new line of printers, given well over ten years had passed since I purchased the Z3100.  Initially I was going to go with another 24", but I wanted the option to go with a dedicated B+W printer, which basically narrowed it down to Epson.  As the larger Epson P's are not yet supported for Piezo and the P800 can not convert to Piezo without purchasing an electronics board for it, I decided to go for the P600, which will convert easily.  At a later date, I will get either a 17" or 24".  I now have that printer and given that you HAVE to first install the standard Epson inkset (even if you ultimately want Piezo) I have decided I'll first of all try Epson ABW.  If I feel that is lacking then I will change it over to Piezo.

If you have limited your options to P800 or Pro-1000 then from what I have read they are very close in terms of 'quality' of output (BW or color).  So if I was you, I would buy the Epson and (like the previous poster recommended) you then have the option of QTR, Piezo or other third party inks at a later date if you are in any way dissatisfied.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 05:41:36 pm by Jasper »
Logged

donbga

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 454
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2018, 05:32:12 pm »

Yes, I agree.  Most people would be extremely hard pressed to see the difference. 

Once again...this thread has gone off track... :-(

Patrick

If you want to make cracker jack digital black & white prints you have to pay your dues so to speak just like people had to in the traditional darkroom.

Why would you own an Epson 3880 for 3 years without using it? That tells me you want a low effort turn-key system that produces excellent results with little or no effort on your part. Well it ain't gonna happen.

The Epson ABW system can make excellent prints with the proper profiles like Eric Chan used to produce for the 3800 and 3880 or perhaps ones produced in house in your own studio. Seems like you would have known this already.

Using non oem B&W inks can produce even better results if you are willing to dedicate a printer to it. You can pickup a used Epson X8XX for a song and convert those into dedicated printers for much less money and operating costs than a new printer. I would advice you to steer away from Michigan Ink Supply, aka www.inksupply.com, as their service seems to have hit the skids in the past few years. Cone inks are quality products if you want to look there.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 05:35:43 pm by donbga »
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2018, 05:33:12 pm »

If you opt for an Epson printer with ABW option you can still use the QTR scripting tool to create ICC compatible profiles that will improve the use of the ABW print driver.  All this requires is a capable spectro and either an i1 Pro or ColorMunki will work here and the QTR scripting tool.  All that needs to be done is print out a B/W stepwedge (21 or 51 depending on what kind of granularity you want); read the patches and plop them into scripting tool.  Keith Cooper has a very good write up of the process and it's very straight forward: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/black-and-white-print-linearisation-with-i1profiler-and-qtr/ .  You will get improved performance from the ABW driver.
Logged

patjoja

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2018, 02:13:29 am »

If you want to make cracker jack digital black & white prints you have to pay your dues so to speak just like people had to in the traditional darkroom.

Why would you own an Epson 3880 for 3 years without using it? That tells me you want a low effort turn-key system that produces excellent results with little or no effort on your part. Well it ain't gonna happen.

The Epson ABW system can make excellent prints with the proper profiles like Eric Chan used to produce for the 3800 and 3880 or perhaps ones produced in house in your own studio. Seems like you would have known this already.

Using non oem B&W inks can produce even better results if you are willing to dedicate a printer to it. You can pickup a used Epson X8XX for a song and convert those into dedicated printers for much less money and operating costs than a new printer. I would advice you to steer away from Michigan Ink Supply, aka www.inksupply.com, as their service seems to have hit the skids in the past few years. Cone inks are quality products if you want to look there.


I really don't know what to say to your comments.  I've spent a great deal of time developing my color photography and printing skills.  This year I decided to turn to black and white photography and printing, and so I am in the learning curve.  As an artist, developing one's own techniques, style, and process is one of the most important aspects of their craft.  In the end there are really only a very few people I need to please with my work...myself...my wife, and my God.  So, if I choose not to use a certain technique, or to use a different technique then the 'accepted' one, so be it.

Regarding not using the Epson printer for several years, I used it exclusively for the first year I had it, but then I received a free printer (the Canon Pro-1) from B H Photo during a promotional when I bought some other photography gear.  After using both for a while, I determined that I preferred the images I was getting from Canon Pro-1 over the 3880.  I later bought a large format Canon iPF6450 printer for my larger work and the 3880 fell into complete disuse. 

BTW, I'm happy to report that after sitting idle for well over a year, the 3880 is back up and running with no problems.  It took a few cleanings and some usage, but it seems to be working fine now.

My main interest is in expressing myself through photography, not in how much dmax my photographs exhibit (not that I don't care about that because I do to an extent, but only as a creative expression).   Because of that, I'm not adverse to letting the printer manufacturer provide me with equipment and hardware that are capable of producing excellent quality prints without me tinkering with their equipment.  For goodness sakes, they have a whole legion of engineers, designers, and suppliers working on that process.  Why can't I focus on what I want to focus on without having to fuss with that part of the process? (And that's not to say I don't fuss over it somewhat, because there is a geek part of me that does that anyway.)

Enough said.  What I really want to know is whether the latest model printers, the Pro-1000's and P800's produce better prints than the previous Pro-1's and 3880's.  The reason I'm asking here is because I don't want to go out and buy my own printer to find out.  I've already spent enough money on this hobby.

Thank you.

Patrick
Logged

patjoja

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
Re: Which Printer for Black and White?
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2018, 02:22:12 am »

If you opt for an Epson printer with ABW option you can still use the QTR scripting tool to create ICC compatible profiles that will improve the use of the ABW print driver.  All this requires is a capable spectro and either an i1 Pro or ColorMunki will work here and the QTR scripting tool.  All that needs to be done is print out a B/W stepwedge (21 or 51 depending on what kind of granularity you want); read the patches and plop them into scripting tool.  Keith Cooper has a very good write up of the process and it's very straight forward: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/black-and-white-print-linearisation-with-i1profiler-and-qtr/ .  You will get improved performance from the ABW driver.

Thank you, Alan.  Your comments are much appreciated.  I've read a number of Keith's articles, but I don't think I've seen that one.  I'll take a look at it.

Patrick
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up