The Leica S Interview

[Rob C]

Watching this, it was difficult to understand the position of the company vis-a-vis MF if only because of the pixel numbers in their camera. Granted the best optics in the world, is that still incentive enough in the face of the competition, where huge pixel numbers are easily available?

I'd have imagined that if one was about to go onto MF, then it was going to be a decision driven by the advantages of better options for magnification, forced crops etc. since as good options are available on the FF cameras that exist today. Real estate at high resolution is invaluable, and isn't that what MF buyers are buying into?

However, the line is very attractive and I wouldn't peer into the mouth of any horse that looked like it!

[KLaban]

Rob, your feelings are shared by many.

[HCHeyerdahl]

There appear to be quite a few problems with the Leica S system. A pity the interview did not address that.

See for instance:
https://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/60615-what-s-why-i-still-like.html

Esp post #1 and #23

Chris

[Kevin Raber]

I am not up on current issues but I do know a lot of people happy with their S system.

You a referring to posts from 10 years ago.  A lot has changed with the S since then.

[Joseph Colson]

I am not up on current issues but I do know a lot of people happy with their S system.

You a referring to posts from 10 years ago.  A lot has changed with the S since then.

No, those posts are from 2017. Not much has changed since then. The S didn't exist 10 years ago. I owned an S2 and upgraded to an S Type 006 when it was introduced. According to Leica Store Miami, I may have been the first US customer to receive a Type 006. And I had the full native lens complement. Since that time, crop-sensor medium format has moved on. Pentax, Hasselblad and Fuji each have competitive cameras with 50MP 44x33mm sensors. I would have expected an article covering the Leica S to address the well-known (if not by you) problems with lens AF motors, requiring lenses to be repaired in Germany, resulting in considerable downtime for active photographers. And I would have expected a full discussion of the competition or, at a minimum, a discussion of how Leica plans to evolve the S to catch up with the medium format front-runners. With all due respect, this article has all the characteristics of a "puff piece" about Leica, not an in-depth article on the Leica S.

When Leica missed the mark with the Type 007, I made the difficult and expensive decision to move on. I've since embraced the Hasselblad X1D and enjoy it far more than any camera I've used in the last decade. I agree with Rob, Chris, and Keith. This article left a lot of ground uncovered.

Joe

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...The S didn't exist 10 years ago...

I am confused...

[Joseph Colson]

I am confused...

That's the S2. The S Type 006 was manufactured from 2012 to 2015. The S2 may have looked like an S, but it isn't an S, IMHO. Hence the name change.



Joe

[Kevin Raber]

Joe.  The posts that were referenced are about the S.  There was an S2 and 006 and 007.  The Leica story is not a review or discussion.  It is a story about Leica and their products with interviews of their top managers.

Things in the MF or as would call it larger than FF are changing rapidly.  A lot of what is being offered is not really MF.  Fuji calls their system wisely enough "G" format.

In my Rantatorail on 2018 I write a little about medium format.  This will be an interesting year for MF and we'll see how it shakes out for the products.  Will there be a 100MP sensor introduced in systems this year?  Where is Pentax?  Will Leica step up the game? What about larger MP sensors in Full frame?  What about Hasselblad and the X1D, what will happen with that camera?  Certainly a lot of mixed reviews with that product.  Will Fuji introduce a 100MP GFX v2? what's Phase One going to do? The list goes on and we'll see how it turns out. 

LuLa is certainly in a good position with all these companies and we are in discussion with them under a lot of NDA's.  The MF market is alive and by Photokina time we should have a pretty good idea how it is going to shape up.

[Joseph Colson]

Joe.  The posts that were referenced are about the S.  There was an S2 and 006 and 007.

Understood. I considered the S2 as significantly different from the Type 006 and Type 007. Perhaps others, including Leica, do not. The link that Chris posted earlier in this thread are to posts on GetDPI from 2017, not 10 years earlier.

The Leica story is not a review or discussion.  It is a story about Leica and their products with interviews of their top managers.

It's more than that and borders on a review:

"The S-camera is beautifully designed and feels exceptionally good in your hands."
"This camera exudes typical Leica engineering."
"The battery fits perfecting (sic) into the camera and sits flush in the camera body."
"The viewfinder is incredibly bright and quite a pleasure to use."

Things in the MF or as would call it larger than FF are changing rapidly.  A lot of what is being offered is not really MF.  Fuji calls their system wisely enough "G" format.

So why title the article "A Beautifully Crafted Medium Format Camera" if it's not medium format? Now I'm confused.

What about Hasselblad and the X1D, what will happen with that camera?  Certainly a lot of mixed reviews with that product.

Is your Phase One DNA showing? 

Yes, the initial reviews, including yours, of the X1D were disappointing. After about one year in the hands of customers and with several firmware updates, the X1D is a marvelous camera. Like all cameras, it's not without its faults. But it's in the "good enough" zone.

LuLa is certainly in a good position with all these companies and we are in discussion with them under a lot of NDA's.

As a reporter, NDA's shouldn't keep you from asking difficult questions and presenting both sides of the coin. Some of those questions and findings might be embarrassing or tough to report, but that ultimately helps your LuLa readership make informed decisions. Ignoring the well-known problem with Leica S lenses was a severe shortcoming of the article, IMHO.

The MF market is alive and by Photokina time we should have a pretty good idea how it is going to shape up.

I agree. I'm brand agnostic and look forward to the announcements and introductions. Having owned Nikon, Phase One, Cambo, Pentax, Leica, Sony and Hasselblad cameras, I can honestly say that I enjoy every product cycle but haven't found the perfect camera yet.

Joe

[Roger Jupiter]

The article is the typical Leica “Fluff” ...zero content !  Go over an read David Farkes article on the Leica S ...he owns the Leica Miami Store and is certainly biased to have blind faith in Leica s design decisions .  But at least he asks the relevant questions and provides a decent explanation of the key design decisions .  Why did Leica choose a 37.5MP sensor for the S 007 ?  Are the AF service issues behind us ?  What is the policy no CCD replacement for the CCD cameras ?

There are plenty of good reasons why Leica choose the key elements of the S design .  They wanted an Optical View Finder ....its a more natural way to see your subject and still preferred by many professionals (keep in mind Phase One chose an OVF ).  We could have a good debate over the HB X1D EVF as a comparison .  The size of the sensor was considered a balance between the physical size (dimension) ,the pixel size and the resultant size of the lenses . 

Look at each aspect before you hurl stones....  50MP is as big as it gets in the smaller MF group (X1D,GFX ) ....and that Sony 50MP sensor is not newer than the one in the S 007 .  37.5MPs with larger pixels is a balance decision .  I wanted more but at least I understand why they went with 37.5 .  I can also tell you that the S 37.5 files are much much better than the Nikon D850 ...I have both . 

The service issues are real and current not old news .  The CCD sensor issues should make a s2/S 006 “not recommended “  and anyone that does even a small amount of homework knows this . 

With that said the number one request of Leica S owners for the S 008 is more megapixels .....not a 100MP but up into that 60-70MP range .   The camera isn t going to sell if they don t accomplish this . 

As evidence ..I bought into the S system in 2009 ..and currently use both a S 006 and S 007 .   The S system is not for everyone ....its expensive ,has very poor service and the bodies do not maintain even average resale history .   But it has a terrific (I think best in class ) range of leaf shutter lenses , a superb build quality including weather proofing , an OVF again best in class and the ergonomics of a fine DSLR . 

My point being that the interview provided zero insights into the S system either as it exists today or may in the future . 

[Rob C]

Good points, Roger, but I wouldn't expect any manufacturer to announce his plans on social media first. And hell, that's what LuLa ultimately is, despite my protestations of never using social media.

Shutter-in-lenses was my preferred choice too, which was why the Hassy 500 series was such a great workhorse for hundreds of professionals around the country, coupled, of course, with the useful image shape. I'd be the first to admit that carrying two bodies and three lenses across sandy beaches was never fun, but neither were Nikons fun because they usually found themselves accompanied with even more optics. That being fact, I can't see the weight of the camera being a genuine Leica concern that figured large in their planning. Even in the interviews they speak about professional users, so I guess they were indeed thinking about that base too. As many pros also hire human mules, weight hardly matters to the pro photographer who'd be buying into said system. My Gitzo needs a mule all to itself!

If one is going to go into MF, then MF is the deal, not some in-between stage of it.

Perhaps the problem is the company's dilemma of finding itself a cross between maker of obects of desire and working tools.

[Joseph Colson]

My point being that the interview provided zero insights into the S system either as it exists today or may in the future.

All good points, well articulated.

Joe

[Kevin Raber]

All good comments.  None of what I published was a review.  The whole Leica story is just that a story of Leica with interviews of managers.  Yes, there is no question the S camera it its generations have a story.  We have covered with articles in the past on the S.  I have not personally reviewed the S or used it for several years.  When the Leica story is complete and we still have a number of videos to go, I'll be looking at the products and reviewing them.  Prior to my interview for the S I did try to pry out news of what is coming.  There isn't news or they are keeping it close to the vest.

The "S" is in a tough spot.  Leica has to make some decisions how this camera will play in a field with new players.  The camera is nice and feels nice and most likely has capabilities to be a player.  Yes, it needs more megapixels.  As mentioned there are a lot of other capable cameras with more megapixels at better price point and feature set. 

There is a new CEO at Leica ( a few months there now).  As a CEO he must look at the large Leica product line and decide what they focus on and what they don't.  They can't make the M10 fast enough.  They have a number of APS-C cameras and the SL.  All of these products except the M10 play in a crowded market. 

I think by the time Photokina rolls around we will have a good idea what is in store.

[Roger Jupiter]

Good points, Roger, but I wouldn't expect any manufacturer to announce his plans on social media first. And hell, that's what LuLa ultimately is, despite my protestations of never using social media.

Never complained about not announcing plans but rather explaining design decisions already made .  For example ..why did Leica choose to develop the S 007 around a 37.5 MP sensor when the Sony 50 was clearly the competition ?  Why did they go to CMOS when an excellent Dalsa CCD 60MP sensor was available ?   Those were trade offs that they clearly evaluated .  Much explained in Farkas interview on REDDOT FORUM .   

Never asked for a review ..just a good interview .  Every camera design has numerous trade offs .....EVF verse OVF ..cost,weight ,viewing capability etc . 

Even a simple question about what Leica believes makes a camera PROFESSIONAL . 

Lots of complaints about service ..what the hell is Leica doing about it ?

Heck even ..what is Leica doing to convince the customers that the S system will continue to be developed . 

Did you know in europe they sent out a deal to their professional customers for an S 007 body at 7500 euros .  Does that seem like a commitment to the S product .

[KLaban]

Will Photokina 2018 see Leica continue developing the S system or concentrating on developing the SL system? Perhaps both, in which case I would expect an MP hike for both. Time will of course tell.

As someone with a bunch of M lenses my interest is with the SL offering.

[Rob C]

There are no perfect, all-round solutions in photography, as we know or learn, sometimes to our cost.

Personally, I'd draw a heavy line between what would suit me today were I still working, and what would make me happy today, as I am not working.

For the work, as long as the S model was reliable and offered the 6x6 equivalents of 8Omm to 250mm shuttered lenses, that would be a delightful thing to own. The sensor size would suit much of what I had to do, the only question being how to produce 40inx60in prints without pixies stealing the show when seen at close quarters, such as in store displays or fashion shows. (Have never printed digital at that scale.) That was one advantage of grain: I could shoot in either 135 or 6x6 formats and nobody was upset. I'm led to believe the cameras are light enough to use hand-held, which was something I often did, unless for purposes where tripods made sense.

For today, as hobby/compulsion, I would have to settle for something light and small, preferably quiet. I do like OVFs, probably because they are what I know best, even if not what they used to be with film cameras. That would mean, for me, 135 format of some type but those are seldom found with silent shutters and mirrors... so I may as well stay with what I already have, and will cost me nothing extra.

[KLaban]

There are no perfect, all-round solutions in photography, as we know or learn, sometimes to our cost.

Personally, I'd draw a heavy line between what would suit me today were I still working, and what would make me happy today, as I am not working.

For the work, as long as the S model was reliable and offered the 6x6 equivalents of 8Omm to 250mm shuttered lenses, that would be a delightful thing to own. The sensor size would suit much of what I had to do, the only question being how to produce 40inx60in prints without pixies stealing the show when seen at close quarters, such as in store displays or fashion shows. (Have never printed digital at that scale.) That was one advantage of grain: I could shoot in either 135 or 6x6 formats and nobody was upset. I'm led to believe the cameras are light enough to use hand-held, which was something I often did, unless for purposes where tripods made sense.

For today, as hobby/compulsion, I would have to settle for something light and small, preferably quiet. I do like OVFs, probably because they are what I know best, even if not what they used to be with film cameras. That would mean, for me, 135 format of some type but those are seldom found with silent shutters and mirrors... so I may as well stay with what I already have, and will cost me nothing extra.

The Leica S would have no problems at 40x60. I reckon I could produce pretty decent 40x60 prints from a 24MP 6000x4000 file.

[BAB]

Ok I’ll step up here, (Will Photokina 2018 see Leica continue developing the S system or concentrating on developing the SL system? Perhaps both,) if they Leica has a deliverable new S (50MP or better even if Leica says that their 36mp is like 50) NOW this quarter would be the time to LEAK! That news.[/font][/size]

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