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Jeffrey Saldinger

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A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« on: January 23, 2018, 06:44:42 pm »

When viewing a 21-step black-to-white chart (P800) with my line of vision more-or-less perpendicular to the paper plane (Epson Ultra Premium or Canson Baryta Photographique), I perceive all the steps I expect to.

However, if I exaggerate the angle the two darkest squares (on each paper) take on a milky/cloudy appearance and look lighter than they should, i.e., the reflective properties of pure or nearly-pure PK ink (which I assume is what is showing this effect) are different from all the other tones, which at the same exaggerated angle look ok. Not surprisingly, I see the same effect on real images' prints in areas with RGB is or is close to 0,0,0; the effect is gone if I raise the black point from L=0 to about L=2 (per the Lightroom develop module histogram) before printing.

I have observed this effect for some time and have not been troubled by it (I have followed some discussions about normal vs. abnormal viewing angle and prefer normal as the way to look at prints), but I have wondered why this happens, whether others have observed this, and why the effect could not have been eliminated in the ink’s formulation.
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Jeffrey
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digitaldog

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 07:57:00 pm »

Sounds like Gloss Differential if I understand what you're describing. Kind of something to be expected when angling the print and depending on the paper etc.
https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/bronzing-and-gloss-differential-issues-on-inkjet-papers
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Jeffrey Saldinger

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 08:28:44 pm »

Thank you, Andrew.

It seems odd to me that gloss differential as described in your link would manifest itself only in the smallest tone steps a small way up from black.  Is there a reason it would be expected there and not elsewhere going up from those deepest tones?
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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2018, 08:33:50 pm »

Without seeing (and better measuring) the print you speak of, I'm kind of speculating but that you see this by altering the angle, it's some kind of similar effect or 'optical illusion' of tone. Do you see this on all papers?
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Jeffrey Saldinger

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2018, 08:38:37 pm »

"All papers" for me has been just the Epson Ultra Premium and the Canson Baryta Photographique I mention in my OP.
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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2018, 08:43:39 pm »

I just tried using Exhibition Fiber, using the step wedge here: http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
All I see, with my Solux lamp is a glossier appearance as the light reflects off the surface making it more difficult to see everything due to specular reflections.
I'd expect a Matt paper would be less an issue but perhaps a similar effect. Dunno, I guess the best answer is, don't angle the prints?  ;D
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Jeffrey Saldinger

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2018, 09:03:44 pm »

Thank you for the link and for trying a test print of your own on this question.

This is a small jpeg of the printer ramp I've been using.  It's where I first observed the effect.

I have a sample package of Epson Legacy papers.  I will try to print the baryta and platine tomorrow afternoon/evening so I can see if the effect shows up on them (I haven't been interested in printing on matte paper).  I'll post again with what I see.
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deanwork

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2018, 09:27:05 pm »

That effect of pigments, especially the black and gray pigments that contain carbon, is called bronzing, that foggy look, not gloss differential. Gloss differential is the 3D effect you see on gloss papers when the white paper base contrasts with a heavy pigment load, especially black.

With Epson pigments and any pigment without a separate gloss enhancer overcoat there is always some of both of these effects going on. Many of these kinds of papers such as Platine and Hahnemühle Fine art Baryta and Pearl surfaces are specially designed with a texture to hide these effects . It's much less evident on those papers. Others like Canson Baryta Photo,  Ilford Gallery Gold and non textured rc media can exhibit pretty bad bronzing.  ( one of the reasons Epson created that pebbly texture of Premium Luster was to hide these effects. )

I saw a neutral black and white print last week done with the latest Epson inkset on the Ilford Gallery Gold fiber gloss media. Everything looked great except the bronzing, which was horrible. If you spray the print with Hahnemühle Protective uv spray this will be greatly reduced. If it's going in a frame behind glass this bronzing wil not be apparent. But naked in a portfolio, it's not acceptable to me, especially the Ilford or rc bw prints. With the HP Vivera inks and their gloss enhancer channel you don't have this issue on any of the papers I use. They are very smooth and even.  Apparently Canon has solved it the same way with their new inks. I haven't seen them yet  though. Again bronzing is far more of a problem with black and white because those pigments particles are more dense.


Thank you for the link and for trying a test print of your own on this question.

This is a small jpeg of the printer ramp I've been using.  It's where I first observed the effect.

I have a sample package of Epson Legacy papers.  I will try to print the baryta and platine tomorrow afternoon/evening so I can see if the effect shows up on them (I haven't been interested in printing on matte paper).  I'll post again with what I see.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 09:49:12 pm by deanwork »
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henrikolsen

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2018, 06:16:44 am »

Many of these kinds of papers such as Platine and Hahnemühle Fine art Baryta and Pearl surfaces are specially designed with a texture to hide these effects . It's much less evident on those papers. Others like Canson Baryta Photo,  Ilford Gallery Gold and non textured rc media can exhibit pretty bad bronzing.  ( one of the reasons Epson created that pebbly texture of Premium Luster was to hide these effects. )

I saw a neutral black and white print last week done with the latest Epson inkset on the Ilford Gallery Gold fiber gloss media. Everything looked great except the bronzing, which was horrible. If you spray the print with Hahnemühle Protective uv spray this will be greatly reduced. If it's going in a frame behind glass this bronzing wil not be apparent. But naked in a portfolio, it's not acceptable to me, especially the Ilford or rc bw prints. With the HP Vivera inks and their gloss enhancer channel you don't have this issue on any of the papers I use. They are very smooth and even.  Apparently Canon has solved it the same way with their new inks. I haven't seen them yet  though. Again bronzing is far more of a problem with black and white because those pigments particles are more dense.

Even with gloss optimiser on the latest Canon inksets, there can still be a lot of bronzing, depending on the paper. The HM Photo Silk Baryta (aka IGFS etc) is really bad with bw and sepia prints. Even textured glossy(ish) fineart papers like HM FA Baryta and PR Baryta do this, and misc cluster RC papers. Straight on, no probs, but uncoated like you mention in a portfolio or hand-outs around a table, it's certainly an issue, at least to some of us. If evaluating multiple prints at a time on a table lay out, you cannot angle all of them at once towards everyone discussing them, and many will be viewed with bronzing.

Interestingly some coatings can fix this, like the Canson Baryta Prestige where the bronzing is mostly gone. So try other papers sometimes, and report back with findings. Hoping that technique from the Prestige could be applied to other papers as well, as I still prefer the feel of Platine (more soft cotton feel, texture, sharpness and more), and would love if bronzing was removed from that excellent paper.

Behind glass, I still see bronzing, and find it annoying. Even if intending to view the image head on, it might catch the viewers eye coming in from an angle, and I would much prefer a consistent look without bronzing no matter the viewing angle, like with the Prestige, matt paper, silver gelatine or similar solutions.
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deanwork

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2018, 10:30:35 am »

Back in the day when I used Epson Ultrachrome pigments for PK work out of QTR, curators would say, yea they are nice but they have that "digital" look, meaning either bronzing or gloss differient or both. Black and white was really bad.

That's interesting that the new Canon inkset still has a lot of bronzing? I thought they solved that. Too bad! Looks like they screwd up all around, reduced longevity and still bronzing.

Actually I've done quite a lot of black and with with the Lucia inkset of the Canon 8300 using only gray and PK ink on Platine and Photorag Baryta out of True Black and White software and the bronzing is very minimal, and is completely gone after the Hahnemühle spray. The Epson inksets are significantly worse from what I've seen,  though I haven't used them for 10 years myself. But I have seen them around.

 After I bought the Z3100 and Z3200s these artifacts were completely eliminated. However with the Ilford Gallery I even saw some bronzing with those Vivera inks!

Friends of mine who tried Platine with the previous Epson inks on the 9900 series said the shine of bronzing was just too much and I've seen those prints and agree. But with the inks I use it performs the best of any paper, in that to me the texture is very natural looking like a silver print and with a little hair dryer, they lay completely flat. The only other PK paper I've used that felt natural was the Harmon Baryta, but that scratched to easily even in the printers. And when I look back on them they are nice but a little too glossy for me in a portfolio.

I'm probably biased though as to the surface of PK papers because I spent 20 years in the darkroom in my formative years. The Hahnemühle Photorag Pearl and Photorag Baryta both with no oba are excellent papers for bw and color work. You have to hand it to Hahnemühle. They have spent the most time trying to come up with the perfect quality media for PK inks with all the inksets. But I still prefer Platine and spend a lot of money on it. When given a choice my clients almost always choose it.

The other reason to spray PK papers in portfolios is to protest them from damage from handling. Inkjet prints are not as durable as silver prints

John




Even with gloss optimiser on the latest Canon inksets, there can still be a lot of bronzing, depending on the paper. The HM Photo Silk Baryta (aka IGFS etc) is really bad with bw and sepia prints. Even textured glossy(ish) fineart papers like HM FA Baryta and PR Baryta do this, and misc cluster RC papers. Straight on, no probs, but uncoated like you mention in a portfolio or hand-outs around a table, it's certainly an issue, at least to some of us. If evaluating multiple prints at a time on a table lay out, you cannot angle all of them at once towards everyone discussing them, and many will be viewed with bronzing.

Interestingly some coatings can fix this, like the Canson Baryta Prestige where the bronzing is mostly gone. So try other papers sometimes, and report back with findings. Hoping that technique from the Prestige could be applied to other papers as well, as I still prefer the feel of Platine (more soft cotton feel, texture, sharpness and more), and would love if bronzing was removed from that excellent paper.

Behind glass, I still see bronzing, and find it annoying. Even if intending to view the image head on, it might catch the viewers eye coming in from an angle, and I would much prefer a consistent look without bronzing no matter the viewing angle, like with the Prestige, matt paper, silver gelatine or similar solutions.
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Doug Gray

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2018, 11:35:14 am »

There is a possibly related issue I've seen, particularly with Epson Ultra Prem Glossy. It has extremely high OBAs and, the way Relative Colorimetric is defined, the CIEXY chromaticity point (xy), offset by the high OBA content with M0 or M1 profiles, is maintained throughout the neutral tone curve when in gamut.

However, the darkest point has a different chromaticity point. As a result, a neutral tone curve from L* 0:100 undergoes an abrupt color shift around the DMax where the printed color is the "closest" in a dE sense. On my 9500 this is about L*=7, on the 9800 it's about L*=4. Aside from the abrupt color shift, there is also a distinct shift in the specular reflected light that is perceptually, even greater than the measured shift as the measured shift includes no specular components. Adobe's BPC alleviates this for properly constructed profiles. However, I prefer using Photoshop curves to relocated "blacks" to just at the point the shift starts occurring when selecting Rel. Col. which I find to give the best results with Rel. Col. When using Perceptual, this isn't necessary. At least with I1Profiler profiles.
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deanwork

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2018, 01:11:07 pm »

I prefer the Canson Photo Gloss Premium  and Satin Photo Premium rolls. They dont seem to have as much of that bluish tint that does really look artificial.( yea , some artists love artificial surfaces and don't care about long term stability)

 But you know almost all of these rc media have a lot of oba. And Wilhelm's fade tests of them are kind of a joke in the way he  exaggerates their stability. ( not to start another well traveled fully explored thread here ). And unlike in the better fiber papers the dye brighteners are in the receptor coating, not the paper core. When I put any of them under my black light they just explode with that oba super glow. And your right there almost a separation between the high values and the midtones and shadows because of those dyes, especially in daylight.   That's one of the reasons that they cost less to produce. I think Mark McCormick at Aardenburg calls the prints made from them dye-pigment hybrid prints because they really are a mix of pigments and dyes in the final printed product.



There is a possibly related issue I've seen, particularly with Epson Ultra Prem Glossy. It has extremely high OBAs and, the way Relative Colorimetric is defined, the CIEXY chromaticity point (xy), offset by the high OBA content with M0 or M1 profiles, is maintained throughout the neutral tone curve when in gamut.

However, the darkest point has a different chromaticity point. As a result, a neutral tone curve from L* 0:100 undergoes an abrupt color shift around the DMax where the printed color is the "closest" in a dE sense. On my 9500 this is about L*=7, on the 9800 it's about L*=4. Aside from the abrupt color shift, there is also a distinct shift in the specular reflected light that is perceptually, even greater than the measured shift as the measured shift includes no specular components. Adobe's BPC alleviates this for properly constructed profiles. However, I prefer using Photoshop curves to relocated "blacks" to just at the point the shift starts occurring when selecting Rel. Col. which I find to give the best results with Rel. Col. When using Perceptual, this isn't necessary. At least with I1Profiler profiles.
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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 02:23:56 pm »

When viewing a 21-step black-to-white chart (P800) with my line of vision more-or-less perpendicular to the paper plane (Epson Ultra Premium or Canson Baryta Photographique), I perceive all the steps I expect to.

However, if I exaggerate the angle the two darkest squares (on each paper) take on a milky/cloudy appearance and look lighter than they should, i.e., the reflective properties of pure or nearly-pure PK ink (which I assume is what is showing this effect) are different from all the other tones, which at the same exaggerated angle look ok. Not surprisingly, I see the same effect on real images' prints in areas with RGB is or is close to 0,0,0; the effect is gone if I raise the black point from L=0 to about L=2 (per the Lightroom develop module histogram) before printing.

I have observed this effect for some time and have not been troubled by it (I have followed some discussions about normal vs. abnormal viewing angle and prefer normal as the way to look at prints), but I have wondered why this happens, whether others have observed this, and why the effect could not have been eliminated in the ink’s formulation.

Black ink in P800 is different than in earlier UC K3 VM inks from earlier generation. I have described it a bit here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=122170.msg1017090#msg1017090

Pure black PK generates a bit of oily tar look when reflects the light. I can easily distinguish P800 print from 3880 if deep blacks are present. I will try to take a picture of this effect. I have noticed it first on Ilford GFS and Sihl Baryta Mono. The impression is of very deep back but pure black separates itself form the rest of the picture.

P800 MK is also different  then earlier. Because of these reasons curve design strategy for QTR should be different for P800 then for earlier Epson inks.
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deanwork

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2018, 04:38:00 pm »

Well yea, there has been an industry wide improvement in the dmax of both PK and MK pigments within the last couple of years. Piezography MK inks have shown a huge improvement but also their PK. Canson and Epson have also seen major improvements. Essentially they have all gotten to or close to where HP Vivera inks were 12 years ago. But I agree with you, sometimes super dense dmax like that on the gloss papers just looks unnatural and just too much. Sometimes I have to just tone it down with a curves adjustment to keep it from being so intense, especially when large areas of max black are involved. Really it is just a matter of getting used to the new capability. Not everything needs that much contrast for sure.



Black ink in P800 is different than in earlier UC K3 VM inks from earlier generation. I have described it a bit here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=122170.msg1017090#msg1017090

Pure black PK generates a bit of oily tar look when reflects the light. I can easily distinguish P800 print from 3880 if deep blacks are present. I will try to take a picture of this effect. I have noticed it first on Ilford GFS and Sihl Baryta Mono. The impression is of very deep back but pure black separates itself form the rest of the picture.

P800 MK is also different  then earlier. Because of these reasons curve design strategy for QTR should be different for P800 then for earlier Epson inks.
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Jeffrey Saldinger

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2018, 05:40:27 pm »

I just tried using Exhibition Fiber, using the step wedge here: http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
All I see, with my Solux lamp is a glossier appearance as the light reflects off the surface making it more difficult to see everything due to specular reflections.
I'd expect a Matt paper would be less an issue but perhaps a similar effect. Dunno, I guess the best answer is, don't angle the prints?  ;D

I did print my printer ramp file on the Legacy Baryta and Legacy Platine and observed the same effect as on the Canson Baryta Photographique that I described in my OP.  Having seen so many experience- and information-rich replies after my comment to you that I'd do those test prints, there is no surprise in this. 
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Jeffrey Saldinger

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 05:47:43 pm »

Dean work (#7 above), where you write

 "Others like Canson Baryta Photo,  Ilford Gallery Gold and non textured rc media can exhibit pretty bad bronzing.  ( one of the reasons Epson created that pebbly texture of Premium Luster was to hide these effects. )" and later "Again bronzing is far more of a problem with black and white because those pigments particles are more dense"

are you referring to the deepest tones only (such as described my OP) or throughout the range of tones?  I have seen it myself only in the deepest tones.  Recall I am printing only BW RGB files via ABW on the P800.
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Jeffrey
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Jeffrey Saldinger

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 05:58:56 pm »

Deanwork (#13 above), I was delighted to read

"Sometimes I have to just tone it down with a curves adjustment to keep it from being so intense, especially when large areas of max black are involved. Really it is just a matter of getting used to the new capability. Not everything needs that much contrast for sure"

This is precisely what I've done in a number of images, often using a Tony Kuyper luminosity mask to limit the effect, and then (if desirable) adding a little contrast one way or another to compensate for the (slightly) reduced dynamic range.
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Jeffrey Saldinger

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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2018, 07:55:21 am »

While doing some online searching about bronzing, I came across this technical study: Exploring the Bronzing Effect at the Surface of Ink Layers (https://hal-iogs.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01160299/document).  Its audience is the scientific community, but I gather there are many readers here who will find things of value in it.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 09:49:54 am by Jeffrey Saldinger »
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Re: A question about deepest PK tones from a P800
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2018, 09:22:09 am »

While doing some online searching about bronzing, I came across this technical study: Exploring the Bronzing Effect at the Surface of Ink Layers (https://hal-iogs.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01160299/document).  It’s audience is the scientific community, but I gather there are many readers here who will find things of value in it.

As mentioned above, a couple of light coats of Premier Print Shield will eliminate any gloss differential in the deep tones and paper-white areas.  It also helps with the somewhat delicate surfaces of some of the Baryta papers. 

When framed with art glass this becomes a non issue.  But for prints that are to be displayed “as is” in mats, I’ll often use two very light coats.

Rand
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