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Author Topic: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?  (Read 2753 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2018, 09:32:42 AM »

Hi Dave,

The turning "deep blue purple" into "deep blue" seems to be a C1-feature rather than a P1 feature as it also affects Sony files.

I have seen that also when shooting in nature, but I use LR as my processing tool and that has seldom been an issue to me.

Best regards
Erik


If you guys wait until spring in Ohio, the leaves in those test scenes will include purplish-blue flowers. And this time I will leave some separation so the ColorChecker isn’t contaminated by the surrounding green.
 :)

Dave
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2018, 10:15:12 AM »

Hi Doug,

I have downloaded those raw files. I did run a quick check on the ColorChecker Passport and found that the Thrichromatic was a tiny bit more accurate than the IQ3100MP.

IQ3100MP C1 ->DE (CIEDE 2000) =  3.65

IQ3100MP LR -> DE (CIEDE 2000) = 3.39

IQ3 Thrichromatic, C1 -> DE(CIEDE 2000) = 3.51

In this case, the IQ3100 with LR and my own profile had the most accurate results. I did not get good results with my DCP profile for the Thrichromatic, though. But there is a lot of room for mistakes.

My take is that the Thrichromatic seems to have better colour on vegetation. That would make it a winner for me.

I am much interested to see what Jack Hogan et al. will find, as Jack looks at those things more from the math side, that is before 3D-LUT has been applied.

Best regards
Erik


The link to receive raw files is self serve. No need to wait until I’m at a computer.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2018, 10:17:10 AM »

An engineer talking with a salesperson about accuracy in color. The mind boggles. That is just not going to be successful!  :)


Ouch Geoff! Unfair use of Titles! Salesperson... I prefer Business Partner, at least, or 411/911 Client Advisor.

 :)



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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2018, 10:52:27 AM »

Steve ... how to put this tactfully ... errr (trying to channel my inner eronald)... nice try but no :)  In English accurate has a very precise meaning and you are using the word inaccurately.

But hey! I have an idea.  You and Doug are dealers, right?  Why don't you shoot the same exact scene including a target of known colorimetry with both the Tri and the Standard Back - and publish the raw files.  Each of us here can then look at the raw files and understand what accurate means to you.  Better yet, shoot them in daylight and throw in a couple of violets.  I am now really curious to see whether Erik's right about the IQ3-100 Standard Back having that inadequate hot mirror shown in Phase One's marketing material.

No?  Well, no surprise and no hard feelings.  All the best,
Jack


Nice shot, Jack!

I see what is happening here, so please allow me to modify my terminology. In the world where I live and operate, I work as a 411/911 Advisor to all sorts of photographers around the world, across many industries. Most of them, regardless of the industry, consider themselves artists, or aspire to be. They use their minds and their senses to arrive at a conclusive judgement of what they were trying to achieve when they pressed that button, usually, but not always located on the top of their camera.

Regardless of Eric's findings that the Trichromatic was slightly more accurate - AHA! - I am changing my terminology, per your correct assessment of my inappropriate use of the word accurate. Instead, I will modify my term to the images out of the IQ3 100 Trichromatic not looking more accurate, but looking more RIGHT. And this is a key differentiator, so I thank you for bringing this up. You see, I work for these photographers, and they don't really give a flip if the image is more accurate, in the way that you are referring to, which realistically, is the only way you could use the word, I suppose. But it doesn't matter if the image is more accurate to them if it doesn't look RIGHT.

And human beings - those faulty, inaccurate, variable nutheads that we are, can see when something is right and something is wrong. If you look at a blue sky shot with the IQ3 100 TRI vs the IQ3 100 STD, you can tell the IQ3 100 TRI is RIGHT. When you look at some sort of brown piece of furniture, you know when it looks right and when it doesn't. That should not be confused with accuracy. You are correct.

Importantly and thankfully, Phase One also takes into account more than just objective numbers when producing their camera systems.

So continue to measure in the way that you do, and arrive at your conclusions. That's what you do well. Photographers around the world will continue to make images and I know they will continue to look forward to cameras that produce images that look right to human beings.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2018, 11:31:50 AM »

Hi Steve,

Thanks for making that point. Just to make things clear, I used to be an engineer. Iliah Borg is a photographer and one of the major developers of LibRAW, RawDigger, among other things.

Great scientists can be great photographers, and great photographers may learn a lot about science. Ansel Adams was a great photographer, but he also had deep knowledge of sensitometry.

Bill Atkinson was one of the main developers behind the McIntosh, but he is also a fine art photographer. Bill Atkinson wanted to print a book, "Within the Stone". So, he teamed up with a Japanese printing firm and helped them implement colour management, in return, they printed his book...

I don't think there is a conflict between Art and Science. But, there is a conflict between supernatural and science.

Phase One had the bad taste to present some extremely bad info with the introduction of the Thrichromatic. In a way it is typical of the MFD industry to spread bad information and talk about magic instead of real benefits.

Just to mention, early speak about MFD advantages mentioned 6EV DR advantage and 16 bit file formats. At the same time it was quite clear that MFD was pretty much limited in ISO. If you have a 6EV DR advantage it would convert to 64 times an ISO advantage! Did MFD deliver good performance at 6400 ISO? No, that was not the case.

It has also been demonstrated that MFD files mostly have been 14-bits wide. This was most clear with PhaseOne files. Once the IQ3100MP arrived, it actually needed a 16 bit file format and a new file format was developed for it.

It is a bit unfortunate, but MFD and foremost Phase One has always been doing a lot of marketing based on "alternate phacts", the Trump Guy just took on that note from Phase One. Was Hasselblad any better? Not really, but they at least had a 16-bit file format, although they just used 14 of those bits. The honest guys were Pentax, Fuji and a guy called Steve Hendrix. Steve Hendrix have never talked BS and for that he should earn a lot of credit!

I think that MFD has some advantages. It could be a larger sensor collecting more photons, it could also being a larger sensor making less demands on the lenses. It could also be that MFD doesn't have those f/1.4 lenses, but the lenses they have perform well fully open?!

But, things are a bit more complex. Some guys like Zeiss or Sigma make really great lenses for 24x36 mm. Lenses that work reasonably well at full aperture.

Personally, I am a guy who prefers to work directly with vendors. I download the manuals, check the MTF data, evaluate raw samples and feel that I make an educated decision.

As a matter of fact, most cameras I bought in 30 years I never had in my hand before delivery:

- The Pentax 67 I bought at B&H in the US. I am living in Sweden.
- All my digital cameras were bought over the net.
- Both my P45+ and the Hassy gear were bought over the net.

When I bought my P45+ there were some parts missing. So, I contacted the local dealer in Sweden and they never heard anything about viewfinder masks. Fortunately, I found another dealer in Sweden and he was most helpful.

I would suggest that there are great dealers and not so great dealers. Would I live in the US, I would trust in Doug or Steve, in Sweden we don't have that option.

Best regards
Erik




Ouch Geoff! Unfair use of Titles! Salesperson... I prefer Business Partner, at least, or 411/911 Client Advisor.

 :)



Steve Hendrix/CI
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2018, 11:47:52 AM »

Hi Steve,

Thanks for making that point. Just to make things clear, I used to be an engineer. Iliah Borg is a photographer and one of the major developers of LibRAW, RawDigger, among other things.

Great scientists can be great photographers, and great photographers may learn a lot about science. Ansel Adams was a great photographer, but he also had deep knowledge of sensitometry.

Bill Atkinson was one of the main developers behind the McIntosh, but he is also a fine art photographer. Bill Atkinson wanted to print a book, "Within the Stone". So, he teamed up with a Japanese printing firm and helped them implement colour management, in return, they printed his book...

I don't think there is a conflict between Art and Science. But, there is a conflict between supernatural and science.

Phase One had the bad taste to present some extremely bad info with the introduction of the Thrichromatic. In a way it is typical of the MFD industry to spread bad information and talk about magic instead of real benefits.

Just to mention, early speak about MFD advantages mentioned 6EV DR advantage and 16 bit file formats. At the same time it was quite clear that MFD was pretty much limited in ISO. If you have a 6EV DR advantage it would convert to 64 times an ISO advantage! Did MFD deliver good performance at 6400 ISO? No, that was not the case.

It has also been demonstrated that MFD files mostly have been 14-bits wide. This was most clear with PhaseOne files. Once the IQ3100MP arrived, it actually needed a 16 bit file format and a new file format was developed for it.

It is a bit unfortunate, but MFD and foremost Phase One has always been doing a lot of marketing based on "alternate phacts", the Trump Guy just took on that note from Phase One. Was Hasselblad any better? Not really, but they at least had a 16-bit file format, although they just used 14 of those bits. The honest guys were Pentax, Fuji and a guy called Steve Hendrix. Steve Hendrix have never talked BS and for that he should earn a lot of credit!

I think that MFD has some advantages. It could be a larger sensor collecting more photons, it could also being a larger sensor making less demands on the lenses. It could also be that MFD doesn't have those f/1.4 lenses, but the lenses they have perform well fully open?!

But, things are a bit more complex. Some guys like Zeiss or Sigma make really great lenses for 24x36 mm. Lenses that work reasonably well at full aperture.

Personally, I am a guy who prefers to work directly with vendors. I download the manuals, check the MTF data, evaluate raw samples and feel that I make an educated decision.

As a matter of fact, most cameras I bought in 30 years I never had in my hand before delivery:

- The Pentax 67 I bought at B&H in the US. I am living in Sweden.
- All my digital cameras were bought over the net.
- Both my P45+ and the Hassy gear were bought over the net.

When I bought my P45+ there were some parts missing. So, I contacted the local dealer in Sweden and they never heard anything about viewfinder masks. Fortunately, I found another dealer in Sweden and he was most helpful.

I would suggest that there are great dealers and not so great dealers. Would I live in the US, I would trust in Doug or Steve, in Sweden we don't have that option.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Eric - I didn't mean to infer that there are no engineers who photograph, even artistically, or vice versa, with photographers who need to perform unartistic documentary recording. Some of my favorite clients are engineers! I won't really go into Phase One marketing, but I'll agree they could have done a better job of explaining the IQ3 100 Trichromatic, and leave it at that.

You know our focus is always on what the product can produce in terms of real world end results, marketing teams are going to do what they do.

Regarding wide open performance, the majority of the Schneider lens lineup for Phase One performs very, very well wide open. Some notable exceptions would be the 28mm and 55mm lenses, though they sharpen up well stopped down a bit. These are among the oldest designs as well.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2018, 03:23:37 PM »

...
So continue to measure in the way that you do, and arrive at your conclusions. That's what you do well. Photographers around the world will continue to make images and I know they will continue to look forward to cameras that produce images that look right to human beings.

Steve,

There appears to have been a misunderstanding: I happen to be one of those photographers and a human being.  And we photographers and human beings all know intuitively that the cameras that produce images that most look right to us usually are the ones that produce the best colors out of the box (the sensor).  If they don't get it close to right out of the box there are times when no profile or processing will save them - we've had some pretty good examples of that in this very thread.  And then perhaps a career in painting would be advisable instead.

Also, I think that Phase One was courageous with the Trichromatic and its CFA, trading accuracy for precision (well, paraphrasing their marketing material a bit:-) as anyone who has read my analysis of David Chew's captures surely understands.  I like the resulting matrices.  Time will tell whether tacking away from the group will yield results and/or be appreciated by us photographers, we are a fickle bunch.  Sometimes it works, sometimes you end up in the doldrums.  Either way I am personally quite intrigued by the related intellectual trip, bring it on.  Just don't expect us to take marketing voodoo talk at face value ;)

Next time I am in your neck of the woods I am going to make it a point to stop by and take you (and Doug) out for a beer.

Jack
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2018, 03:49:46 PM »

Steve,

There appears to have been a misunderstanding: I happen to be one of those photographers and a human being.  And we photographers and human beings all know intuitively that the cameras that produce images that most look right to us usually are the ones that produce the best colors out of the box (the sensor).  If they don't get it close to right out of the box there are times when no profile or processing will save them - we've had some pretty good examples of that in this very thread.  And then perhaps a career in painting would be advisable instead.

Also, I think that Phase One was courageous with the Trichromatic and its CFA, trading accuracy for precision (well, paraphrasing their marketing material a bit:-) as anyone who has read my analysis of David Chew's captures surely understands.  I like the resulting matrices.  Time will tell whether tacking away from the group will yield results and/or be appreciated by us photographers, we are a fickle bunch.  Sometimes it works, sometimes you end up in the doldrums.  Either way I am personally quite intrigued by the related intellectual trip, bring it on.  Just don't expect us to take marketing voodoo talk at face value ;)

Next time I am in your neck of the woods I am going to make it a point to stop by and take you (and Doug) out for a beer.

Jack


Jack, I'm glad you are a photographer (and human being!). Forgive me if I inferred otherwise. You have the benefit of peeking with more interest and precision at what happens at the sensor level than I do. So as a result, I weigh my findings more completely on the final results. And sometimes a thread gets very heavy on the sensor findings, in this case I became more interested when there was doubt expressed about the relative accuracy of the IQ3 100 Trichromatic because viewing it from my end, this seemed contradictory. So I'm glad Eric did find - so far - that the Trichromatic seems to be more accurate than the IQ3 100. For my purposes, I know what I see, and I'm not alone, so I'll be interested in further findings at the investigative stage prior to the theater I operate in.

I certainly wouldn't expect you to take marketing voodoo at face value, we sure don't, so why should you? There is good marketing, there is bad marketing. Points for or against for good or bad communication efforts. Nonetheless, it is ... marketing.

Do please stop by if you're in Atlanta, I'll treat you to the best Thai food. Doug's in New York, so you'll have to work out a beer there.


Steve Hendrix/CI

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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2018, 03:17:29 AM »

You have the benefit of peeking with more interest and precision at what happens at the sensor level than I do. So as a result, I weigh my findings more completely on the final results. And sometimes a thread gets very heavy on the sensor findings, in this case I became more interested when there was doubt expressed about the relative accuracy of the IQ3 100 Trichromatic because viewing it from my end, this seemed contradictory. .

Surely though a photographer would like to be in complete control of his/hers equipment - and that means having minimised variables and dependency on the unknowns? At least a few photographers I know do prefer this. That was true in the days of the film and it remains even more true in the days of digital. Though in the days of the film a lot more information was provided by film manufacturers that it is nowadays by camera/back/sensor manufacturers (Kodak published data about all its sensors in the olden days but these days are now in the past). Sadly, what we have nowadays is equivalent to this in film era: having a film with no data whatsoever except ISO sensitivity and a statement from manufacturer "if you develop it in our lab and print it on our paper, then we will give you the utmost fim accuracy and colours" (and to be clear I am not referring to just Phase One - this is applicable to just about any camera manufacturer these days).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 03:51:56 AM by Alexey.Danilchenko »
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2018, 05:51:26 AM »

Ok, I've taken a look at the Phase One IQ3 100MP "Appetizing Fruits and Veggies" raw files in Doug Peterson's article.

I confirm the earlier findings based on similar processes.  Out of the box (the sensor), that is before any color profiles and processing have been applied, the IQ3 100MP Standard Back appears to produce more accurate tones than the Trichromatic with this D50 capture, with SMI00 of about 87.6 for the SB vs 83.5 for the TC.  I would call those excellent and good respectively.  The TC still has better looking matrices and they both look similar to previous ones once the change in lighting has been taken into consideration.  Refer to the linked articles for information on the processes and related limitations.

Given prior experience with this audience I won't bore you with the details.  Suffice it to say that the largest error by the SB is in the red patch (dE00 2.0), while the 'caucasian skin' patch is the most problematic for the TC (dE00 3.1) in this case. Should anyone be interested in the linearly rendered files and metrics PM me your email address and I will send them to you.   Just don't spend too much time on the orange, the left lime and the yellow and orange peppers because their linear colors are mainly out of gamut even in Adobe RGB.

Jack
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2018, 04:12:07 PM »

Ok, I've taken a look at the Phase One IQ3 100MP "Appetizing Fruits and Veggies" raw files in Doug Peterson's article.

I confirm the earlier findings based on similar processes.  Out of the box (the sensor), that is before any color profiles and processing have been applied, the IQ3 100MP Standard Back appears to produce more accurate tones than the Trichromatic with this D50 capture, with SMI00 of about 87.6 for the SB vs 83.5 for the TC.  I would call those excellent and good respectively.  The TC still has better looking matrices and they both look similar to previous ones once the change in lighting has been taken into consideration.  Refer to the linked articles for information on the processes and related limitations.

Given prior experience with this audience I won't bore you with the details.  Suffice it to say that the largest error by the SB is in the red patch (dE00 2.0), while the 'caucasian skin' patch is the most problematic for the TC (dE00 3.1) in this case. Should anyone be interested in the linearly rendered files and metrics PM me your email address and I will send them to you.   Just don't spend too much time on the orange, the left lime and the yellow and orange peppers because their linear colors are mainly out of gamut even in Adobe RGB.

Jack


I think I am just now starting to realize what you meant by accurate vs precision. While you did not seem to indicate the Trichromatic was more accurate out of the box, you feel it is more precise, meaning less color polluting or colors crossing paths that ideally do not? You can put it the way that makes the most sense or is most correct.

In this case, that would seem to then make total sense why I look at a sky with the Trichromatic and feel it looks right (more precise? more accurate?), while the IQ3 100 comparatively does not. I don't know how a red cast to a sky squares with being more accurate or precise, but certainly the end result seems to favor the Trichromatic.

If a small amount of up front accuracy is sacrificed in exchange for some up front precision, and the end result is a more correct image (agh, now I'm paranoid about all these terms!), then I think the result is better in this case.


Steve Hendrix/CI


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« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 04:15:33 PM by Steve Hendrix »
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opgr

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2018, 04:32:40 PM »

Instead of discussing the various nuances between accurate and precise, i'm currently wondering about the following far more interesting question:

What does the TC offer that a standard IQ combined with say a $100 UV cut filter does not?

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Oscar

alifatemi

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2018, 06:23:39 AM »

Interested to know if anyone here did the 100mp cross-grade form regular IQ100 to the Trichro? and if so roughly what the cost was.

Personally I'm holding out for the 150mp sensor, which I presume will have at least some of the Trichro enhancements on board.
(can't believe they are going to release two versions of the 150mp back, Trichro and Regular, as that would be an admission that the regular CFA has its strengths)

How do you know sir that 150mp is coming in first place?! Regards.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2018, 09:25:59 AM »

Hi,

Sony has announced the sensors around Photokina 2016, with part numbers and all.

It is not very feasible that Phase One or Hasselblad would abstain from using them, especially as they probably also represent three years of development over the older sensors.

Sony also announced 100 MP 44x33 sensors at the same time, essentially meaning that we will see 100 MP on both X1D and GFX platform late this year or early next year.

Best regards
Erik


How do you know sir that 150mp is coming in first place?! Regards.
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