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Author Topic: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?  (Read 2754 times)

narikin

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Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« on: January 23, 2018, 12:11:04 PM »

Interested to know if anyone here did the 100mp cross-grade form regular IQ100 to the Trichro? and if so roughly what the cost was.

Personally I'm holding out for the 150mp sensor, which I presume will have at least some of the Trichro enhancements on board.
(can't believe they are going to release two versions of the 150mp back, Trichro and Regular, as that would be an admission that the regular CFA has its strengths)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 10:10:37 PM »

Hi,

It seems the old CFA design is more accurate, but the new design gives colours more pop. My guess is that they may end up with stronger IR and UV filtering, that the Thrichromatic has but return to a CFA design that is more accurate in colour.

Best regards
Erik

Interested to know if anyone here did the 100mp cross-grade form regular IQ100 to the Trichro? and if so roughly what the cost was.

Personally I'm holding out for the 150mp sensor, which I presume will have at least some of the Trichro enhancements on board.
(can't believe they are going to release two versions of the 150mp back, Trichro and Regular, as that would be an admission that the regular CFA has its strengths)
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alatreille

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 10:31:55 PM »

I wonder if we'll see new hardware in the back at this time...IQ4?

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 07:26:02 AM »

It seems the old CFA design is more accurate, but the new design gives colours more pop.

Our IQ3 Trichromatic testing disagrees with this assessment.

Have you tested a IQ3 100mp and IQ3 100mp Trichromatic?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 07:49:18 AM by Doug Peterson »
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2018, 10:19:37 AM »

Our IQ3 Trichromatic testing disagrees with this assessment.
Really? Does it have any objective measurements and comparisons to the ground truth in that article?
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2018, 12:30:18 PM »

Really? Does it have any objective measurements and comparisons to the ground truth in that article?


With the possible exception of historic documentation, what value does objective accuracy have over subjective accuracy to a photographer?


Steve Hendrix/CI
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DP

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2018, 12:38:48 PM »


With the possible exception of historic documentation, what value does objective accuracy have over subjective accuracy to a photographer?


Steve Hendrix/CI

indeed, "16 bits" of the old good CCD backs lore
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tcdeveau

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2018, 01:06:42 PM »

Back to the OPs question, not sure where you are located, but why not just ask one of the dealers as to the upgrade cost?  At least two US-based dealers responded in this thread. 

I'd think a dealer would be the best resource for an up-to-date upgrade estimate instead of creating a forum thread that opens up an off-topic can of worms that has been beaten to death in other threads. 
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2018, 01:16:50 PM »


With the possible exception of historic documentation, what value does objective accuracy have over subjective accuracy to a photographer?

It allows to quantify the statement to which I responded - without this it was and remains just a set of words
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narikin

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2018, 01:49:40 PM »


I'd think a dealer would be the best resource for an up-to-date upgrade estimate instead of creating a forum thread that opens up an off-topic can of worms that has been beaten to death in other threads.

Well of course I could ask a dealer for their price, but was mainly interested to know if anyone moved across from IQ100 to Trichro 100. It seems not, or very few, as no one has responded positively.
Which in interesting in itself!


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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2018, 03:29:26 PM »

It allows to quantify the statement to which I responded - without this it was and remains just a set of words


The previous statement was disagreeing with a further previous statement, which stated the opinion that colors were more accurate with the 100 STD vs the 100 TRI. Doug disagreed and showed examples to back up his opinion. In his opinion, the colors were more accurate with the 100 TRI. I agree that colors are more accurate with the 100 TRI (based on my testing, not necessarily his).

So my question - which I think is a valid one, and I mean no disrespect to measurers - remains. If I and everyone in the room subjectively assess color as more accurate with the 100 TRI, what does it matter to a photographer what an objective measurement indicates?


Steve Hendrix/CI
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DrakeJ

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2018, 03:31:47 PM »


The previous statement was disagreeing with a further previous statement, which stated the opinion that colors were more accurate with the 100 STD vs the 100 TRI. Doug disagreed and showed examples to back up his opinion. In his opinion, the colors were more accurate with the 100 TRI. I agree that colors are more accurate with the 100 TRI (based on my testing, not necessarily his).

So my question - which I think is a valid one, and I mean no disrespect to measurers - remains. If I and everyone in the room subjectively assess color as more accurate with the 100 TRI, what does it matter to a photographer what an objective measurement indicates?


Steve Hendrix/CI

Have I ended up in a hifi-forum? Is someone going to sell me a rock I need to place on my camera to get better images?

DP

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 03:46:48 PM »

If I and every
other dealer interested to sell  ;D

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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2018, 04:19:41 PM »


The previous statement was disagreeing with a further previous statement, which stated the opinion that colors were more accurate with the 100 STD vs the 100 TRI. Doug disagreed and showed examples to back up his opinion. In his opinion, the colors were more accurate with the 100 TRI. I agree that colors are more accurate with the 100 TRI (based on my testing, not necessarily his).

The previous statement indicates tests and implied some kind of objectivity. In fact it was nothing but a marketing blurb enriched by sales incentives. If you are entering the argument about more accurate colour then you should be prepared to put forward arguments better than "subjectively it looks better to me". There are a million variables in all of that including profiles and raw development software used which (what a coincidence) devised by the very company interested to sell this back in a first place and come up with a sales pitch to convince buyers.

So my question - which I think is a valid one, and I mean no disrespect to measurers - remains. If I and everyone in the room subjectively assess color as more accurate with the 100 TRI, what does it matter to a photographer what an objective measurement indicates?
Subjectively to me the era of digital backs with the best colour ended with Kodak ProBack 645 and Phase One P20, P25 - you are welcome to try "subjectively" persuade me otherwise
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G_Allen

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2018, 04:22:01 PM »


For what it's worth, I briefly tested the Trichromatic against the normal IQ100 last month at a P1 event, and found the Trichromatic files to have very attractive, natural (to me) color, very easy to color correct and grade to taste. Great skin tones. Noticeably better color than the IQ100.

These were natural light exterior portraits, as I'm not interested in seeing still life tests.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 04:30:54 PM by G_Allen »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 04:26:09 PM »

other dealer interested to sell  ;D


Wow - you guys really do lump dealers together don't you. And make assumptions. Take my post on its own merits. The argument I am making is one that any fine art photographer for example, might have an opinion about - regardless of what camera they choose.

The only thing I ever "sell" is myself.  I don't "sell" equipment, I discuss its merits and the validity for each individual client I work with. Don't get me confused with the bad boy dealer you have worked with.

For what it is worth - despite working at one of the world's most successful and distinguished Phase One dealers, while CI has had some IQ3 100 to IQ3 Trichro upgraders, I have not sold a single IQ3 100 to IQ3 100 Trichromatic upgrade to anyone so far. While I do believe the color response is superior, I feel the price for that investment has to be weighed against the only tangible benefit, which is the improved color (versus a future IQ4 150, which will have other assets of value, albeit surely at a higher price). There is an advantage to the Trichromatic, but the upgrade cost - if you already own an IQ3 100 - has to be considered. Quite a few Lula members engaged in these discussions with me and can back up my description of my position.

My cards are always on the table, just please don't mix them up with cards from other dealers.


Thanks,
Steve Hendrix/CI

« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 07:15:38 PM by Steve Hendrix »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 04:33:53 PM »

The previous statement indicates tests and implied some kind of objectivity. In fact it was nothing but a marketing blurb enriched by sales incentives. If you are entering the argument about more accurate colour then you should be prepared to put forward arguments better than "subjectively it looks better to me". There are a million variables in all of that including profiles and raw development software used which (what a coincidence) devised by the very company interested to sell this back in a first place and come up with a sales pitch to convince buyers.
Subjectively to me the era of digital backs with the best colour ended with Kodak ProBack 645 and Phase One P20, P25 - you are welcome to try "subjectively" persuade me otherwise


Sorry, but I disagree. For all practical purposes, it is possible to produce color with reasonably good devices and very similar conditions and determine subjectively that one color is more accurate than another. It absolutely is. Your bias against the presenter of the information is coloring your response to it. While there was a semi attempt (perhaps poorly executed by Phase One) to describe this scientifically, there were also images that were captured which are not intended for objective measurement, and that is what I am ascribing my position to. I myself performed comparative testing. On a certain level I could give a flip how they did it. I'm not interested in selling more of these, I'm interested in finding out if it truly holds any value for my clients. And the results showed me that the performance was superior (the value is a different story).

Regarding your subjective preference for your Kodak backs, if that is a preference for accuracy, ok, I might have a bone to pick with that. But if it is a preference for the color itself, that you like the color (regardless of accuracy), that is entirely something else. I'm not talking about that.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2018, 05:49:14 PM »

With the possible exception of historic documentation, what value does objective accuracy have over subjective accuracy to a photographer?

For example product photographers for whom accurate rendition of a product color decreases retouching costs and decreases the likelihood of product returns.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2018, 06:09:07 PM »

The previous statement indicates tests and implied some kind of objectivity. In fact it was nothing but a marketing blurb enriched by sales incentives.

My statements are objective analysis. I can tell you it was raining more yesterday in midtown manhattan than it was today; I don't need to tell you the exact inches of rainfall for that to be an objectively true statement with extremely high confidence.

You probably meant the link did not contain numerical analysis and you are correct that the link I provided did not include numerical analysis; I don't think numerical analysis is especially useful to the target audience of the article (99% of whom are photographers, not color science PHDs), and can even be misleading. For example, if camera X has a 10% lower average Delta E on a Color Checker SG that doesn't mean, necessarily, that is has more accurate color in the context of a particular photographer's needs, especially if the test is made after generating a custom profile the main intention of which is to nail the colors of a Color Checker SG.

It's worth nothing that I'm in R+D, not sales, and have a fair bit of experience in numerical color evaluation having worked with numerous tier one museums and libraries on establishing metrics by which to measure their internal color accuracy and precision. See for example the Phase One Color Guide for which I was a lead author, or our Lighting Webinar during which I provide an overview on the scientific nature of light and color. So I don't agree with "marketing blurb enriched by sales incentive", but you are welcome to dismiss me as you wish. Should you wish to do your own testing we are glad to facilitate such a test by providing the relevant hardware, at no cost, in our test studios in NYC or LA; you can make the test as centered on targets, numerical analysis, or spectrophotometers as you like.

I 100% stand by my statement and elaborate it further: The Trichromatic produces more accurate color. The difference is most notable in traditionally problematic subject matter and is otherwise pretty minor. Whether that matters to a particular user (given the IQ3 100mp color was already very good), whether that is worth a particular price (and whether now is the right time to pay that price), those are not questions I feel in a position to address that's for the user to decide. Notably better color accuracy does not guarantee that a given user will find the color more visually appealing; as an obvious example, very few films had "accurate" color, and some of the most beloved films of all time were very far from accurate. =

The bottom line is that when a client asks a question like this we prefer not to answer with test charts, numbers, or raw files. We prefer to answer by putting a camera (or both cameras if relevant) in their hands and tell them to go make their own tests. We may point them at some things to look for (as we've done testing under a wide variety of circumstances) to save them time, but it's really their call from there. We can't put a camera in a hand via text on a forum, and we know some people want to download files and play around before committing their time to their own testing, so we make some of our testing available for free download. Really the only downside is that some people will say hurtful things on the internet, and if I couldn't stomach that I would have left 3721 posts and 11 years ago.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 06:36:08 PM by Doug Peterson »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Did anyone cross-grade IQ100 > Trichro 100 ?
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 06:22:51 PM »

For example product photographers for whom accurate rendition of a product color decreases retouching costs and decreases the likelihood of product returns.


Yes, but what I am saying is that there are a ton of photographers who will never utilize objective - based color measurements on the way to final production. In fact, probably the majority of photographers evaluate color visually, and that's it. Certainly this leaves room for error, given the wide variety of devices and conditions all these photographers render and view in (not to mention their own visual acuity). And they'll never change.

But for someone who wants to compare an IQ3 100 to an IQ3 100 Trichromatic, I am saying it is possible to arrive at a true and accurate conclusion without objective measurements if the devices and conditions are optimal and consistent. That's the whole point of you showing the image samples, is it not? We produced our own image samples and from our own CI samples, I could see the difference and the difference was in favor of the IQ3 100 Trichromatic, as your article did, just with different data.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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