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Author Topic: pink color cast on "white" border  (Read 7100 times)

mearussi

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 07:24:27 pm »

The only time I've seen an unprinted white area looked pink was when the paper was saturated with OBAs, which if used to excess will cause this effect.
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Thenolands

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 07:30:55 pm »

No OBAs used in production of this paper (per RR website) and the line is distinct and immediate after printing.
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mearussi

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 07:46:54 pm »

No OBAs used in production of this paper (per RR website) and the line is distinct and immediate after printing.
Have you tested that with your own UV light? I've caught other companies claiming "no OBAs" only to find when I checked myself they did  have OBAs in them.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2018, 06:15:28 am »

No OBAs used in production of this paper (per RR website) and the line is distinct and immediate after printing.

I see there has been a change to a somewhat heavier quality. The "Art" in the name is going along with that? Is it this year's January the website refers to?
http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/auroranatural.html

In the past the Aurora Natural and White had a gsm weight lower than what RR specs mentioned. I measured 230 gsm then. It looks like they have a new quality and I will try to get some sheets of it to add the measurements to SpectrumViz. The old Aurora natural had an odd drop in the spectral plot at the left side, UV absorption, but not a bulge in the blue that indicates OBA. More likely TiO2 or a similar whitening agent that absorbs UV but emits the converted energy beyond visible red. The Aurora White version had quite a similar spectral plot to Moab Endura Bright White then. All four were more or less dual side coated so I wondered whether there was more realtion between the qualities.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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nirpat89

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2018, 08:56:45 am »

Looking at the profile with ProfileInspector, it's marked as a V2.0 profile but the math (BtoA1) appears to be that of V4 profiles. For instance L*=100 is encoded in the LAB PCS as 0xffff whereas it's 0xff00 for V2 profiles. This isn't enough for most people to notice. Usually. But it could be causing a color shift depending on whether color management engine detects this and adjusts to accommodate.

http://www.color.org/v2profiles_v4.pdf

Should be able to prove/disprove definitively if the RR profile is the culprit by simply printing a 255-255-255 block without a profile (in ACPU or something) or using an alternate random profile that does not have this problem.
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digitaldog

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2018, 10:52:53 am »

This isn't an OBA issue, it's either the profile or something else like a bug in the product/driver etc.
To the OP, I suggest you try another profile, from another paper manufacture even if it's wrong! Using the same test images. Do nothing different but pick a different ICC profile from another source even if it is the wrong paper. Get a magenta cast on white? If not, it's the profile. If so, we need to drill down elsewhere in the print path.
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Doug Gray

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2018, 11:37:30 am »

Should be able to prove/disprove definitively if the RR profile is the culprit by simply printing a 255-255-255 block without a profile (in ACPU or something) or using an alternate random profile that does not have this problem.
This isn't an OBA issue, it's either the profile or something else like a bug in the product/driver etc.
To the OP, I suggest you try another profile, from another paper manufacture even if it's wrong! Using the same test images. Do nothing different but pick a different ICC profile from another source even if it is the wrong paper. Get a magenta cast on white? If not, it's the profile. If so, we need to drill down elsewhere in the print path.

Those are good ideas. The RR profile is an interesting beast since it's got V4 math in a V2.0 marked profile. The result depends on the CMM as well as whether the controlling software recognizes that it's malformed (bad PCS math) and how and if it attempts to correct things.

So running the test with an arbitrary, but properly formed printer profile, should isolate the problem.

I agree that it's not an OBA problem though it's possible OBAs could make scum dots more visible. However, there should be nothing printed with RGB 255,255,255 for either Perceptual or Relative Intents. Abs., of course, will.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:40:46 am by Doug Gray »
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Thenolands

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2018, 11:49:48 am »

Yes, I agree it doesn’t sound like OBAs. I have essentially already done the proposed 255/255/255 test print with the border around the photo. I will try using a different profile although I am out of the Aurora Natural paper samples I had ( need to see if RR will send me some paper to replace the waste that occurred due to their improper profile). However, for testing purposes is really shouldn’t matter water paper it is printed on as it should be applying ZERO ink to the border. I feel with the differences in relative and perceptual that I have already experienced it likely has to be a profile issue.

I have received a couple of responses from RR asking about my problem but they have er to provide any fixes. I am surprised I am the only one that has ever had this issue with their profiles although it is possible that if One wasn’t printing a white border one would not notice the magenta shift although when compared to perceptual intent the difference is pretty obvious.
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Doug Gray

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2018, 11:53:15 am »

Yes, I agree it doesn’t sound like OBAs. I have essentially already done the proposed 255/255/255 test print with the border around the photo. I will try using a different profile although I am out of the Aurora Natural paper samples I had ( need to see if RR will send me some paper to replace the waste that occurred due to their improper profile). However, for testing purposes is really shouldn’t matter water paper it is printed on as it should be applying ZERO ink to the border. I feel with the differences in relative and perceptual that I have already experienced it likely has to be a profile issue.

I have received a couple of responses from RR asking about my problem but they have er to provide any fixes. I am surprised I am the only one that has ever had this issue with their profiles although it is possible that if One wasn’t printing a white border one would not notice the magenta shift although when compared to perceptual intent the difference is pretty obvious.
Yep. The paper shouldn't matter. Just make sure when you test with a different profile that you keep the paper settings the same. Don't change any settings in the workflow other than the profile.
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Thenolands

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2018, 12:08:19 pm »

Will do.

Could anyone recommend a paper with available profile that might be most similar to Aurora Art Natural?
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Doug Gray

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2018, 12:42:43 pm »

Will do.

Could anyone recommend a paper with available profile that might be most similar to Aurora Art Natural?

Another thought. What you are seeing is exactly what is expected when printing with Absolute Colorimetric Intent for most any profile. Verify that you haven't been selecting that inadvertently.
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Thenolands

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2018, 12:46:19 pm »

Thanks. I definitely have not selected that in Lightroom (doesn’t have that option). Now photoshop does and I am not sure what my defaults are there. Where can I go to check that? And would it matter if the final selection in Lightroom was relative? I guess it might.
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Doug Gray

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 12:59:30 pm »

Thanks. I definitely have not selected that in Lightroom (doesn’t have that option). Now photoshop does and I am not sure what my defaults are there. Where can I go to check that? And would it matter if the final selection in Lightroom was relative? I guess it might.

Abs. isn't possible in Lightroom, only Rel. and Perc. Abs. is selectable in Photoshop's print dialog box.   It was just a thought since that's the only time I've actually seen this effect on a print. It's normal with Abs. Col. because it tries to print L*=100 and can't since no paper reflects perfect white.
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Thenolands

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2018, 01:01:52 pm »

It is a good thought that would also explain the Lightroom border tool not printing a pink tint since photoshop was not involved.
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Thenolands

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2018, 11:06:13 pm »

Well darn. I looked up my photoshop color settings and attached. Absolute is not selected.
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Doug Gray

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2018, 01:08:38 am »

Well, back to the drawing board.

I used your profile and compared it to a custom printing RGB 255,255,255 and 254, 253 neutrals in Rel Col.  No evidence of any printing. Unprinted v printed Lab values read within .05 dE which is far below anything visible. L* started dropping about .3 for each step down on the neutrals for both profiles with only a slight difference in gain. This is what I would expect. So I have no idea what the cause is.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2018, 08:04:31 am »

Thanks for the reply. For simplicity I said I created the border but really I did a digital reproduction of a pencil drawing and the artist took the file and added the border and feathered the edge to blend it into the border. The image printed without the border is fine so I agree with you that the profile is either not the issue or the profile is interpreting the border data incorrectly somehow?

Is there a better way to do it to eliminate the possibility of this pink cast if using photoshop? What presets or options might be causing this? I can tell you the border does not have a color when I review the photoshop file. But I am not a photoshop expert by any stretch.

I would love to use lightroom but the feathering he wants is an issue and the only thing I have ever seen in Lightroom is the border and stroke options which 1) have limited range of thickness and 2) shrink and crop the image as the border expands. Any way around these 2 issues?

Since we are all back to "Square One", I thought I should go there as well and see if there remains anything useful I can contribute at this late stage. We've seen that your Photoshop settings and your Lr settings are normal and that the photo prints correctly, but the borders do not. The borders are the only element that was beyond your control, because you say they were made by the artist and blended into the photo. The notion that the profile would treat the photo correctly but not the borders doesn't make sense to me, unless there is something embedded in the border data that is causing the CMM to misinterpret the colour. The one thing we don't know yet is what application the artist used to create those borders, what settings were used with that application, and how that information got handled in Photoshop in the file that came back to you. I don't know what, but it seems this is the only stone that we haven't turned up to now.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Thenolands

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2018, 08:12:36 am »

Sorry for the confusion Mark, I did clarify in a later post that the photo itself does have a pink cast on relative when compared to perceptual and that ink is applied to the border area on both relative and perceptual but much more ink applied with relative. I have also created my own photoshop file to take the artist out of the equation and it still printed the border.

I know basically nothing regarding Lab values and what they mean but I thought digitaldog had said the profile had an invalid value that could be causing this issue. Do we no longer think that is the case? I am going to follow up with RR today if there is still the thought that the profile is to blame.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2018, 09:13:24 am »

Sorry for the confusion Mark, I did clarify in a later post that the photo itself does have a pink cast on relative when compared to perceptual and that ink is applied to the border area on both relative and perceptual but much more ink applied with relative. I have also created my own photoshop file to take the artist out of the equation and it still printed the border.

I know basically nothing regarding Lab values and what they mean but I thought digitaldog had said the profile had an invalid value that could be causing this issue. Do we no longer think that is the case? I am going to follow up with RR today if there is still the thought that the profile is to blame.

Ah - sorry I missed that; yes you did. This reverts the story back to the profile, because the profile specification includes the four Rendering Intents for handling out of gamut colours. I'm now wondering whether there is a problem with Relative Intent rendering of the White Point. Have you tried printing it in Photoshop with Absolute, which does not remap the White Point from the source to the destination? If the cast disappears in the Absolute print, it would seem to indicate a problem with the interpretation being applied with Relative.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Thenolands

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Re: pink color cast on "white" border
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2018, 09:27:38 am »

I will try that this evening.
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