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Author Topic: What is Sigma up to?  (Read 3071 times)

BernardLanguillier

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What is Sigma up to?
« on: January 13, 2018, 07:38:47 PM »

Am I the only one noticing that Sigma has slowed down a lot this past year?

Could they be working already on the next gen mirrorless bodies from Nikon (and possibly Canon)?

Wouldnít it be great if the Z mount were open?

Cheers,
Bernard

davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2018, 03:53:21 AM »

Hi,

I will not say they have been quite, they have released 5 lenses:

- Sigma 14mm ART: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/02/21/191/
- Sigma 135mm ART: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/03/17/177/
- Sigma 100-400 Contemporary: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/03/31/162/
- Sigma 24-70 ART: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/02/21/194/
- Sigma 16 mm Contemporary (for E and MTF mounts) - https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2017/11/09/1483/

Also this year Sigma CEO confirmed that they are developing FE lenses for Sony mirrorless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgqwFVbpzzQ . Rumors were pointing to a 2017 end of the year release, but now they are saying beginning 2018. Rumors say they are going to do the equivalentes of the ART series for mirrorless, that it will make sense.

I highly doubt the possible Z Nikon mount will be open. Neither Nikon nor Canon were interested in opening their mount to third party manufacturers,  I don't think they are going to start now.

Regards,

David

E.J. Peiker

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2018, 10:48:15 PM »

In addition to the 5 lenses above, they have released several cine lenses in the last year as well.  This entire line was released last year:
https://www.sigmaphoto.com/cinema-lenses

I'd say that's far from quiet ;)
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shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2018, 01:09:27 AM »

I suspect Sigma is working on a number of mirrorless lenses - most likely adaptations or improvements on current Art-series lenses, with motor and other mechanical changes to optimise them for mirrorless cameras.

They will likely come out with E-mount versions first, but I doubt EF-M and Z-mount versions will be far behind, once it becomes clear exactly which mount Canon and Nikon will use for their full-frame mirrorless cameras.

This will be to Nikon's and Canon's advantage, since, although they will have very few mirrorless-optimised lenses initially (just like full-frame E-mount when it first launched) they may have a stable of Sigma mirrorless lenses available to fill the gap while they launch their own lenses, making Canon/Nikon mirrorless a viable option right from launch.

Of course, a lot would depend on exactly what lenses Sigma decides to start with - the staple 24-70 and 70-200mm f/2.8 zooms, or the slightly more niche fast primes.
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davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2018, 01:49:31 AM »


They will likely come out with E-mount versions first, but I doubt EF-M and Z-mount versions will be far behind, once it becomes clear exactly which mount Canon and Nikon will use for their full-frame mirrorless cameras.

This will be to Nikon's and Canon's advantage, since, although they will have very few mirrorless-optimised lenses initially (just like full-frame E-mount when it first launched) they may have a stable of Sigma mirrorless lenses available to fill the gap while they launch their own lenses, making Canon/Nikon mirrorless a viable option right from launch.

Yes, if the rumor about the Z mount turns to be true with those dimensions, any FE lens design will work on the Z mount system, it  only needs to change the mount (a bit larger and wider) and electronics... the optical design will be the same.



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davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2018, 04:34:09 AM »

Looks like the first annoucement of the FF mirrorless line of Sigma lenses for both Sony and Nikon could be in March: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sigma-rumored-launch-new-ff-lenses-sony-fe-nikon-new-ff-mirrorless-cameras/

BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2018, 08:33:43 AM »

Looks like the first annoucement of the FF mirrorless line of Sigma lenses for both Sony and Nikon could be in March: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sigma-rumored-launch-new-ff-lenses-sony-fe-nikon-new-ff-mirrorless-cameras/

The stars are starting to align nicely.

It is sometimes surprising how simple common sense can go a long way predicting the future. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Rob C

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2018, 09:11:40 AM »

The stars are starting to align nicely.

It is sometimes surprising how simple common sense can go a long way predicting the future. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

It will never beat a crystal ball.

Rob

NancyP

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2018, 02:01:24 PM »

Next best thing to crystal ball:
https://www.cameraquest.com/hyper.htm
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Rado

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2018, 02:32:39 PM »

Do all autofocus mirrorless lenses use focus by wire? It's a great irony that together with EVFs which finally allow you to manually focus wide open at f1.4 we also get this awful detached focusing system, unless you choose to use manual lenses.
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shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2018, 02:50:07 PM »

Yes, if the rumor about the Z mount turns to be true with those dimensions, any FE lens design will work on the Z mount system, it  only needs to change the mount (a bit larger and wider) and electronics... the optical design will be the same.



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The optical design may also be the same as current Sigma lenses. They'd just need a bit of extra empty space behind the rear element.

I just hope Sigma does the sensible thing and releases automatic lens correction profiles for C1, Photoshop, DxO and all the other common processing software out there. The lack of readily-available automatic corrections, to completely eliminate CA and distortion, is probably the greatest current weakness of Sigma gear.
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davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2018, 05:19:50 PM »

Do all autofocus mirrorless lenses use focus by wire? It's a great irony that together with EVFs which finally allow you to manually focus wide open at f1.4 we also get this awful detached focusing system, unless you choose to use manual lenses.

It is not mandatory. But it has some advantages for the manufacturer.

- The design is simpler, you don't need to connect rotating physical elements, so you can make the lens more compact.
- It is also simpler for them since they are all using linear motors. Typically, mirrorless lenses with both Phase Detect and Contrast AF use a hybrid focusing system. The phase detect puts the lens very quick into the nearly optimal position and the contrast AF fine tunes it with very quick back and forth movements, to get a very precise focus. This is done very very quickly. Typical helicoid mounts in manual lenses are very quick when they are moving in one direction, but this last step of moving quickly back and forth it is much faster with linear systems like the mirrorless use, but more difficult to make a mechanical manual focus system.

Saying that. The focus by wire system have progress a lot in the last years. I hate it on my Panasonic 20 f1.7 MTF lens. In my Sony 24-70 GM lens is quite good, it is completely linear the movement. Sony even improved it much more with the Sony 12-24 G that I bought one month ago. With that I don't fill the difference with my manual lenses.

davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 05:27:00 PM »

The optical design may also be the same as current Sigma lenses. They'd just need a bit of extra empty space behind the rear element.

I just hope Sigma does the sensible thing and releases automatic lens correction profiles for C1, Photoshop, DxO and all the other common processing software out there. The lack of readily-available automatic corrections, to completely eliminate CA and distortion, is probably the greatest current weakness of Sigma gear.

Since the E mount is open (after agreeing with Sony NDA), they could add the profile to the lens and do in-camera correction. Anyway, I will be surprise if Phase One or Adobe do not create after a while lens profiles for those lenses, they are doing it for nearly all lenses in the market now. Just some less know manufacturer is missing.

davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 05:28:13 PM »

Next best thing to crystal ball:
https://www.cameraquest.com/hyper.htm

No idea about this lenses... I would love to see that star fan in action :)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 06:07:25 PM »

Iíll further with my guessing and say that Nikon and Sigma lenses will not be real competitors in the mirrorless world.

Sigma is going to commonalize their designs for E and Z mounts meaning they will be f1.4 primes and f2.8 zooms.

Nikon will release 2 ranges;
- super high end f1.0/f1.2 primes (that will equal Otus at f1.4) and f2 zooms
- super compact f2.8 primes (could be f2) and f4 zooms

The Sigma will fit right in between.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 06:11:49 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 06:38:42 PM »

Iíll further with my guessing and say that Nikon and Sigma lenses will not be real competitors in the mirrorless world.

Sigma is going to commonalize their designs for E and Z mounts meaning they will be f1.4 primes and f2.8 zooms.

Nikon will release 2 ranges;
- super high end f1.0/f1.2 primes (that will equal Otus at f1.4) and f2 zooms
- super compact f2.8 primes (could be f2) and f4 zooms

The Sigma will fit right in between.

Cheers,
Bernard

Why would they release more f/1.0 and f/1.2 primes? Not only are they big, heavy and physically slow, they also tend to have a lot more optical problems than the more typical f/1.4 and f/1.8 lenses (and, when stopped down to f/1.4, will then have a non-roind aperture). And the very widest apertures tend to have very limitee utility anyway, due to the extremely thin DOF.

Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of the 'Nikon does everything better' crowd more than anything else. They can't bypass optical limits any more than Leica or Zeiss can - the Summicron (f/1.8-f/2) lenses are sharper than the Summilux (f/1.4), which are much sharper than the Noctilux. And Canon's f/1.2 lenses are also among their softest lenses.

Basically, f/1.2-and-wider lenses are specialised lenses for a specific purpose other than sharpness, not something for general use.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 07:30:01 PM »

Well, you were 100% sure that Nikon would never start mirrorless with a FF body, were you not?

You were also sure that Sony would release their next gen high res sensor as an a7rIII.

And you were very negative about the ability of Nikon to release a competitive successor to the D810.

...

I am really not sure I would buy these lenses, but the rationale for thinking Nikon might release them is:
- https://petapixel.com/2017/09/07/nikon-patents-2-full-frame-mirrorless-lenses-52mm-f0-9-36mm-f1-2/
- the need for them to differentiate themselves. Lenses is the only area where they could do this in a meaningful way and I don't think that an 50mm f1.4 will help achieve this.
- the specs of the mount that has obviously been designed to accomodate very bright glass
- the confidence that the AF of these mirrorless bodies will be able to manage such shallow DoF
- years of frustration among Nikon's engineers about the limitations resulting from the F mount

Besides, Nikon has been doing everything they tried better for years now. This isn't wishful thinking, it is just looking at facts. Now, some of their product planning has been way off, no doubt, but their
engineering is best in class.

Thinking that they will extend their leadership to mirrorless is just common sense, but I agree we will see once the products hit the shelves.

The Sony offering will remain brilliant, shouldn't all photographers be happy about having better options? I would hope Canon to surprise us even more.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 09:09:45 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 10:08:40 PM »

Well, you were 100% sure that Nikon would never start mirrorless with a FF body, were you not?

You were also sure that Sony would release their next gen high res sensor as an a7rIII.

And you were very negative about the ability of Nikon to release a competitive successor to the D810

You're conflating me with other people.

I said they'd start either with a non-action, high-res body (similar to A7r2 or D810), or a crop body, rather than an action-focused, A9-type high-speed body. So far, Nikon hasn't said what they're bringing out - all they have is a lens mount capable of taking a full-frame sensor, with no indication as to the actual specs of the camera.

I never said anything about the A7r3 being a high-resolution body - I see little point speculating about nomenclature, merely capabilities. And Sony did exactly what I said they would in bringing out an in-between, 'balanced' type body, directly opposite the D850 (this was before any A7r3 specs were actually announced). They haven't brought out a high-resolution body yet, but we know for a fact that they have them in testing/prototype.

Nikon hasn't released a D810 successor, in the sense of a super-high-resolution, studio/non-action oriented camera aimed at pure image quality, with no compromises for speed. They've released a super-D750 - does everything well, being much more capable than the D750 at everything, yet not specialising in anything. A real D810 successor would be 60-70MP and probably 5fps or so. The only commonality between the D810 and D850 is the number '8' in front of the model number. And names are pretty much meaningless (which is why I don't bother speculating on nomenclature) - the 5D3 was a completely different kind of camera to the 5D2, and the D800 completely different from the D700.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 10:50:07 PM »

I am certainly not confusing you with somebody else. I have a very vivid recollection of the various opinions you expressed these past months. ;)

Anyway, we'll know soon enough whose crystal ball was better.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 11:00:49 PM »

I am certainly not confusing you with somebody else. I have a very vivid recollection of the various opinions you expressed these past months. ;)

Anyway, we'll know soon enough whose crystal ball was better.

Cheers,
Bernard

Quotes, please.
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