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Author Topic: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?  (Read 3360 times)

Stephan_Pawloski

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Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« on: January 11, 2018, 09:14:04 PM »

Hello all,
I recently made a little over 100 test prints on a myriad of different papers. I'm looking to step up things a bit and get away from using some of the more generic papers when selling prints. Naturally, I would like to stick with the new paper of choice for at least a few years. After evaluating the prints, I ended up choosing the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl (the Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag was a very close 2nd), but have since noticed that all 4 of the paper suppliers in my area are clearing out their Hahnemuhle papers and don't intend to keep it in stock anymore (special order only). I don't mind buying online, but I'm a bit concerned that there might be a sort of Hahnemuhle exodus going on and that I might be better with the Red River paper over the long run if the Photo Rag Pearl is going to become harder to source.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 04:14:13 AM »

Stephan,

There could be a number of reasons why the suppliers near you do not keep stock of HM qualities. Could be the buying online in general, could be that 4 suppliers near you is a bit too much, could be an anticipation to Trump's import tax changes for foreign products versus US products. The last should affect Red River's Rag too as it is a Felix Schoeller product from Germany as well. I have not noticed significant price changes of HM qualities here in Europe, nor heard of HM problems. Quality remains the same and HM has several papers not available in other catalogs.

I wonder which inkjet art/photo paper qualities are still made in the US.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 06:09:42 AM by Ernst Dinkla »
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Atlex

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 11:04:32 AM »

Stephan_Pawloski

Hahnemuhle still has their papers available in the US and we still offer majority of them.  They only discontinued their Harman line and replaced a few of the top ones with their Hahnemuhle versions that are updated.  Ernst may also be correct with certain suppliers though.

Moab is one of the brands that makes their papers/canvas in the US (located in NJ and CA).  They do get the master rolls from overseas like most other brands do (Ilford ships to Australia and then to distributors, etc).
Basically, most of the coating process is done at the same location as other brands get theirs done before it's complete, boxed up and sent to the appropriate locations (manufacturer warehouse or authorized distributors).

Atlex.com

Here is Hahnemuhle's site with everything they still have in the USA:
https://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/hahnemuehle.html
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JayWPage

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 12:02:26 PM »

Photography Stores, where I live in BC, that have discontinued Hahnemuhle papers have told me it was because of the high cost of Hahnemuhle papers and decreasing sales volume. 

I use both Hahnemuhle and Moab papers and while the Hahnemuhle papers are more expensive than Moab, I have had more wastage with Moab due to manufacturing defects (dents, bumps, creases). Also there is more dust on the Moab Entrada Bright (the one I use) than any of the half dozen Hahnemuhle papers I have used. So the cost/benefit of these papers is about the same to me and the usage depends more on the paper characteristics.
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deanwork

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?.... No that's Canson
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 12:41:35 PM »

There is nothing sinking about Hahnemühle. They have been the most popular high-end media since they started coating their papers for inkjet almost 20 years ago. They have also been the most consistent in regard to quality control in my experience for the last 18 years I've used them.

Now Canson who was their strong  competitor for the las 12 years is another story. They have been sold so many times in the last few years  that I can't keep up with them. They also were the first historic paper manufacturer to sell their formulas out right to Epson, who now sells their same papers under the Legacy name, while Canson attempts to sell the same media under their name, a very strange situation.

I have used the Canson Rag Photographique for 10 years because of its sharp coating with excellent color gamut and top of the line dmax. Now something has happened to their coating and dmax has crashed in a major way, making it unusable for the black and white work I do with several printers and inksets. I also see a reduction in the color gamut and have actually experience a color shift in some of my HPZ Vivera prints when exposed to light and even a fading of some mid tones in my own window tests when no color inks were even used at all. As an example with dmax it went from 1.8 down to 1.67 on the Z3200. On the Canon 8300 down to 1.58 from what used to be 1.69. And original piezography my dmax down from 1.67 to 1.58. That is a major change in coating no matter how you want to spin it. Last week I emailed Canson USA about this when the head marketing guy  sent me a promotional email trying to get their company back in the game. They are going to do their own tests finally apparently and not take the French divisions word for it. I think he believes me. At least he didn't dismiss my observations. I've been a big cheerleader for Canson because of their use of Titanium white pigments in place of dye brighteners. Not enough of these papers were fade tested outside of Wilhelm.

So I switched back to Hahnemühle Ultrasmooth and Photorag 308 and both my color gamut and dmax are back where they should be. And that goes for ALL the high-end Hahnemühle media, very consistent for all these years. I have had no issues with Canson or Epson branded Platine, at least not yet. Or their rc media as far as that goes.

If people want to test these differences with your inksets  print out a black square on Canson Rag Photo or Epson Legacy Fiber and do the same on any smooth or even not smooth Hahnemühle or Moab Entrada sheet and measure the density. See for yourself. I actually wish more people would do this and send the results to Canson and Epson. While your at it, print out the Atkinson printer evaluation target and see the hue saturation differences as well. Canson used to be the best matte rag gamut,  slightly better than Hahnemühle. Now the Canson gamut is duller in my tests. I'm seeing it in things I've reprinted from years ago files.

So in testing the Canson and Epson smooth matte rag over the last six months from various batches it has proved unusable for me. Is it working better with the new Epson inks?, possibly,  but that doesn't help me and I'm sure Hahnemühle will prove superior with those inks too. And regardless what Canson is hearing from France, changes to the coating have been made, maybe different factory, water, etc..... How many changes who knows. And has their stellar claimed longevity( Wilhelm ) changed as well? That is my biggest concern since I've made so many prints on Canson matte rag papers.

So for me, thank God for Hahnemühle and their commitment to excellence and quality control over the last two decades.

Moab doesn't make  their media, they are made by Legion , Awagami and others from everything I've heard in the past. But they have some very  nice papers, especially Entrada that tests very well at Aardenburg and is beautiful. I plan on using the natural version along with Hahnemühle.

John





Hello all,
I recently made a little over 100 test prints on a myriad of different papers. I'm looking to step up things a bit and get away from using some of the more generic papers when selling prints. Naturally, I would like to stick with the new paper of choice for at least a few years. After evaluating the prints, I ended up choosing the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl (the Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag was a very close 2nd), but have since noticed that all 4 of the paper suppliers in my area are clearing out their Hahnemuhle papers and don't intend to keep it in stock anymore (special order only). I don't mind buying online, but I'm a bit concerned that there might be a sort of Hahnemuhle exodus going on and that I might be better with the Red River paper over the long run if the Photo Rag Pearl is going to become harder to source.
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unesco

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?.... No that's Canson
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 02:52:31 PM »

Canson used to be the best matte rag gamut,  slightly better than Hahnemühle. Now the Canson gamut is duller in my tests. I'm seeing it in things I've reprinted from years ago files.

I was going to introduce Canson Rags to my print portfolio, but it looks like I will stay with Epson Hot Press which I love and again start to like HM (am I getting mature ;-) ), especially for limitted series of graphics reproduction
BTW, do you know who makes Hot Press for Epson? on my A2 package it is written "Made in Italy"... Fabriano as the third missing from grand mills trinity?
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deanwork

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?.... No that's Canson
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 03:48:43 PM »

That's a really good question. Hot Press is a fine paper with a nice coating. I like the warmer natural version. Never heard who made it. Interesting about coming from Italy . First I've heard of that.

I don't know if the Canson Edition Etching has been effected. I used to use a lot of that too. It has the same titanium white pigment whiteners and the everything else except the texture looks the same so I assumed they were made in the same place. But so much has changed who knows.



I was going to introduce Canson Rags to my print portfolio, but it looks like I will stay with Epson Hot Press which I love and again start to like HM (am I getting mature ;-) ), especially for limitted series of graphics reproduction
BTW, do you know who makes Hot Press for Epson? on my A2 package it is written "Made in Italy"... Fabriano as the third missing from grand mills trinity?
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Atlex

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 11:00:27 PM »

There are only a few paper plants in the world and Canson is one of them.  Mitsubishi is another but one of the bigger locations.

However, Canson made a deal with Epson towards their Legacy line over a year ago that is basically like a Canson paper with very small differences (if any).  Legion just recently acquired Canson papers and now carry Canson, Moab and Museo.

Our purchasing person told me a few years ago that majority of all media was distributed from Mitsubishi and sent to the appropriate manufacturer locations to become their paper.  I'm not really sure which paper plant Epson gets their product from exactly, but it's only from a few locations
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 11:46:43 PM »

This is gonna be heretical, so I apologize in advance for both the heresy and the thread hijacking. But you guys seem to be very knowledgeable.
I'd like to know who makes the "Kirkland Professional Glossy Inkjet Photo Paper" that I see at Costco in the USA and Canada.
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deanwork

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 12:09:55 AM »

Sihl in Switzerland and Felix Scholler in Germany make a lot of the media rebranded by others, as well as Mitsubishi in Japan. Especially the rc stuff.

https://www.sihlinc.com/company/who_we_are.html

That may end up being a good thing that Legion bought the Canson line. They have been making nice rag media like Somerset since the beginning of digital output. Maybe they will bring back quality control. We'll see. Somerset is a very old printmaking paper mill in England.

Looks like Arches in France has left the digital media arena altogether to refocus on traditional papermaking which was always their specialty. Probably why their collaboration with Canson ended.

John


This is gonna be heretical, so I apologize in advance for both the heresy and the thread hijacking. But you guys seem to be very knowledgeable.
I'd like to know who makes the "Kirkland Professional Glossy Inkjet Photo Paper" that I see at Costco in the USA and Canada.
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Stephan_Pawloski

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?.... No that's Canson
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 12:10:49 AM »

There is nothing sinking about Hahnemühle. They have been the most popular high-end media since they started coating their papers for inkjet almost 20 years ago. They have also been the most consistent in regard to quality control in my experience for the last 18 years I've used them.

Thank you everyone for your replies, John your backstory with Canson and the Hahnemuhle info has put me at ease that what I'm experiencing here is a local microcosm specific shift away from Hahnemuhle and not a market shift. I make regular orders for the business from B&H so it's very convenient to purchase the Hahnemuhle there as well, and I really like the results it has produced in the tests.

On an aside, is it normal that I have to take a math test every time I make a post? I didn't think it would be necessary with a paid membership community.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?.... No that's Canson
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 07:33:20 AM »

I was going to introduce Canson Rags to my print portfolio, but it looks like I will stay with Epson Hot Press which I love and again start to like HM (am I getting mature ;-) ), especially for limitted series of graphics reproduction
BTW, do you know who makes Hot Press for Epson? on my A2 package it is written "Made in Italy"... Fabriano as the third missing from grand mills trinity?

It is always difficult to link a "Made in ....." to what is actually the place of production, the more in the EU with its open borders. A paper base could be produced in Italy by Cartiera Fabriano or Magnani but get its inkjet coating in France or the other way around. Mammut rolls can be shipped throughout the EU, to the US, coming from Asia and the final conversion to end user roll and sheet sizes is another spot that makes a "Made in ...." possible and a label of a supplier. For example the owner of Sihl, the coater for Hahnemühle's rag papers and itself an inkjet paper supplier, is a big Italian holding with coating facilities in Switzerland + Germany and a converting facility in the US among more plants. It bought several Océ companies in France with similar machinery but may have transferred production from there to the other plants.

That said, Fabriano was the name I was missing in the list of inkjet rag paper manufacturers a decade ago, I recall some news about their involvement over the last two years though. Innova uses the label Fabriano on a quality now.

Up to 2014 at least Canson depended heavily on Felix Schoeller in Germany for the inkjet coating application. There was a rumor of a row between them at the Photokina 2014 when Felix Schoeller showed a paper catalog of their own range of similar inkjet papers to distributors and consumers, I could not lay a hand on a catalog like that in 2012. Canson's link with Arches was broken but could be just be just the loss of the Arches name they no longer can attach to their products, paper may still come from that mill. Especially in Fiber/Baryta qualities Felix Schoeller these days must be the main producer next to some types from Mitsubishi (Pictorico). I have no idea where Innova exactly get their Fiber/Baryta products from, it could be all more dynamic in time than what we expect. Smaller labels have mainly Felix Schoeller, Mitsubishi, Fuji as their suppliers. Hahnemühle had some control on the Lana mill in the Vosges through its parent company then and might still get wider rolls from that mill since it came in Danish ownership after another bankruptcy. In short ownership of mills, coating facilities, etc changes and even that does not tell whether a certain paper production will be changing too. Ilford Imaging's original manufacturing plant in Swiss disappeared though and Ilford inkjet papers today come from totally different locations than before, it is now supplied like the small distributors are. HP and Kodak shifted their inkjet paper distribution to BMG and several papers were not the same anymore.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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snowrs

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 03:47:06 PM »

OK, I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture of retailing at brick and mortar stores in the U.S. and perhaps also the changing habits of "photographers" in this country.

Retail stores across the land are losing out on market share to on line sales and going out of business in ever increasing numbers...not only in camera/photo stores but in many types of product sellers.  Trying to stay in business, many retailers are minimizing inventories and are more attentive to sales volumes by product than ever.

Another aspect:  The casual photographer today (volume wise) more and more is a person using their smart phone for all their image captures, and the photos end up either on facebook, etc., and/or are never even printed, let along saved out to a computer hard drive.  Also, when I do portraits recently, I find less and less enthusiasm when I metion using archival papers and inks to print their images.  They want cheap, and usually, they want small.  It seems the printed image is becoming less popular.  Just my observation.

So, I am betting that many stores just can't afford to tie up scarce capital stocking something that will not sell fast, if at all.  As an example, I live in a town of some 35000 and an hour's drive to a one million population city, and cannot buy any of the papers in question without going on line, nor can I buy ink for either my Epson P800 or R2000.  Even if I could, the sales taxes and markup would make them much more expensive. 

"The times, they are a chang'n"

bob snow
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deanwork

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2018, 05:32:42 PM »


Are you kidding me ?  I live in a city where the metro area is six million, Atlanta Georgia USA .

We have never had a photo retailer where I could buy rolls of any of the high quality fine art inkjet  papers and large format inks that I use. There are two art store chains where you can sometimes buy Canson and Moab sheets, at an outrageous markup. Some students with last minute projects fall for that. But we can't even buy Epson rc papers in rolls. You know why? Because the 5 pro photo stores that were here 10 years ago are all out of business. We have one rental store but they certainly don't sell high end inkjet papers or any papers or inks. I've never been able to buy Hahnemühle in Atlanta. That's nothing new.

All the photography equipment and materials went online a long time ago. The photo store in America is B&H and Amazon. That is our world now.

John


OK, I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture of retailing at brick and mortar stores in the U.S. and perhaps also the changing habits of "photographers" in this country.

Retail stores across the land are losing out on market share to on line sales and going out of business in ever increasing numbers...not only in camera/photo stores but in many types of product sellers.  Trying to stay in business, many retailers are minimizing inventories and are more attentive to sales volumes by product than ever.

Another aspect:  The casual photographer today (volume wise) more and more is a person using their smart phone for all their image captures, and the photos end up either on facebook, etc., and/or are never even printed, let along saved out to a computer hard drive.  Also, when I do portraits recently, I find less and less enthusiasm when I metion using archival papers and inks to print their images.  They want cheap, and usually, they want small.  It seems the printed image is becoming less popular.  Just my observation.

So, I am betting that many stores just can't afford to tie up scarce capital stocking something that will not sell fast, if at all.  As an example, I live in a town of some 35000 and an hour's drive to a one million population city, and cannot buy any of the papers in question without going on line, nor can I buy ink for either my Epson P800 or R2000.  Even if I could, the sales taxes and markup would make them much more expensive. 

"The times, they are a chang'n"

bob snow
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snappingsam

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2018, 06:39:17 PM »

Here in the UK there's been a change in the pricing structure to wholesalers - perhaps the same has happened in the USA - and your seller was not getting the best margin. Since they were set up in the 15th Century I think they will not be closing!
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 08:41:07 AM »

Here in the Washington DC area there are no stores that sell the kinds of paper that we all print on nor can one purchase any ink or printers other than the entry level ones.  This is a fact of life these days.  One can still get sample packs of paper to test out prior to deciding what to print on for sale/display.  Packs of 25 letter size paper are pretty affordable to carry out more extensive testing before moving up to more expensive larger size papers.  Also consider the very large number of paper types these days; it is doubtful that any brick & mortar retailer would be in a position to carry all of these brands in all of the sizes.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 04:57:45 PM »

Did some homework on this, and my sources indicate Hahnemuhle isn't going anywhere - here to stay; as they have been since the 1500s (ya, no inkjet back then however). The problems with inventory are downstream - retail, different reasons for different retailers - it's a mixed bag.

Reading some of these tales of woe about the state of brick and mortar retail for paper supplies, I must say that here in Toronto we are comparatively fortunate. To name the most widely known - CCBC, Vistek, Henry's, Downtown Camera, Tricera, Amplis, Epson and Canon (these latter three on-line only but real local buildings with inventory in them) - we are well served with access to quite a range of materials - not everything of course, but a lot of variety. The Greater Toronto Area (GTA) is running close to 5 million these days and growing with both natural increase and immigration, but these outlets serve a larger catchment than the GTA.
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deanwork

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 06:40:36 PM »

I love Canada.



Did some homework on this, and my sources indicate Hahnemuhle isn't going anywhere - here to stay; as they have been since the 1500s (ya, no inkjet back then however). The problems with inventory are downstream - retail, different reasons for different retailers - it's a mixed bag.

Reading some of these tales of woe about the state of brick and mortar retail for paper supplies, I must say that here in Toronto we are comparatively fortunate. To name the most widely known - CCBC, Vistek, Henry's, Downtown Camera, Tricera, Amplis, Epson and Canon (these latter three on-line only but real local buildings with inventory in them) - we are well served with access to quite a range of materials - not everything of course, but a lot of variety. The Greater Toronto Area (GTA) is running close to 5 million these days and growing with both natural increase and immigration, but these outlets serve a larger catchment than the GTA.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 07:43:28 PM »

I love Canada.

Nice, thanks - but we're far too small for a B&H - that place takes the cake for size, product and service; nothing else like it anywhere in the world I've been.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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deanwork

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Re: Is Hahnemuhle losing favor? Sinking ship?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 08:29:13 PM »

Canadians don't allow their companies to function like BH.  Read The NY Times articles about One of the charges. I've heard a lot worse stuff going on than this over the years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/27/nyregion/bh-electronics-store-sued-for-discrimination-of-hispanic-workers.html

I use Shades Of Paper in New Jersey for print supplies. It's a family run outfit.



Nice, thanks - but we're far too small for a B&H - that place takes the cake for size, product and service; nothing else like it anywhere in the world I've been.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 08:44:19 PM by deanwork »
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