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Author Topic: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!  (Read 22526 times)

opgr

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 09:09:05 AM »

You know the opposite is true if they use media and news-outlets to convince us otherwise...
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 09:10:01 AM »

Number of patents is basically meaningless. You can patent almost anything, whether it's actually useful or not, or whether it even represents something truly innovative, or pretty much a slight variant on the same thing. There are plenty of patents out there on near-identical drugs, which vary only by one functional group in an unimportant location. Such patents serve little function other than to act as a legal impediment and 'shield' against competitors working towards a similar goal.

If you want to judge innovation, focus on what they actually bring out, not what they patent.
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NancyP

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 10:47:24 AM »

They have done well in the "L" lens department, though. 11-24, more conventional WA zooms 16-35 f/4 and 16-35 f/2.8 III, that BR optical technology first used in the 35 f/1.4 II, a whole slew of tilt-shift lenses for product / macro photographers, high-quality consumer tele zoom 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 II. I am waiting to see what they come up with for the 500, 600 lengths in the DO (diffractive optics) line.

One might argue that, aside from the BR and improved DO technologies, these lenses represent refinements and not "innovation" - but users like them.

Sigma, a real innovator in sensors, has gotten a little stuck, probably due to the computational burden of the Foveon sensor. They have been hitting it out of the park with lenses, though.
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BobShaw

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 04:03:52 PM »

Canon has been the market leader for how many years?
http://global.canon/en/news/2017/20170329.html
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 11:45:56 AM »

Canon has been the market leader for how many years?
http://global.canon/en/news/2017/20170329.html

Shhh, be quiet, you don't want to disturb the "Canon are boring non-innovative" mantra crowd:)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 05:12:34 PM »

Fun stuff.

I post a positive news about Canon straight from the most positive site about Canon on the internet... you guys see negative in it... amd you blame me for being negative... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Tony Jay

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 05:50:30 PM »

Fun stuff.

I post a positive news about Canon straight from the most positive site about Canon on the internet... you guys see negative in it... amd you blame me for being negative... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
This article is just spin - and anyway it is not news (as in being new).
Ten years (or more) ago Canon had the reputation for obsessively registering and hoarding patents...

Canon have been unable to convert this apparent lead in innovation into any class-leading cameras over roughly the same period. Good solid performers all - class-leading, no!

So the reason for lack of interest in that declaration is the fact that, although it may be true on one level, it does not translate to any products available at a retail level.

Disclaimer: I still shoot Canon, although not exclusively.

Tony Jay
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Mary K

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2018, 01:16:08 PM »

I agree that Canon has not produced any new ground breaking cameras in several years, but their lens lineup allows me to create images that no other 35mm system can offer.

The Canon tilt-shift lineup outpaces any other manufacturer (17mm, 24mm, 50mm, 90mm, 135mm, all with the ability to change the tilt/shift orientation, and three with 1/2 life-size macro capability). The macro lens lineup includes the unique MP-E 65mm, which has 1x-5x macro capabilities. Telephoto lenses with image stabilization were introduced by Canon years before they were available from other companies. The 200-400mm with built in 1.4 TC stood alone until the recent announcement by Nikon. The 8-15mm fisheye to rectilinear lens has been available since 2010, and has only recently been introduced by Nikon. Canon was also the first company to introduce DO lenses. I could go on, but suffice to say I would have switched to Nikon when the D800 came out, but the Canon lens lineup continued to keep me in their camp.

I understand that most photographers can make the photos they want with standard lenses (the 24-70s and 70-200s, for example), and so they can easily switch from one great body to another, regardless of manufacturer, if they can afford to take the losses incurred when switching systems. However, I own and use many of the above mentioned Canon lenses, and switching to a company that offers less creative options does not make sense for me.

Do other companies offer cameras and lenses that I would like to have? Of course. But none that I know of offer the whole package that Canon produces. Can some of the work these lenses allow me to do be created in Photoshop? Yes, but I prefer to get what I want in camera, and not spend any more time than I have to working on images in PS. Do my prints suffer because I don't have the best cameras available? Perhaps, but I can easily make 40 x 60 prints if that is what the customer wants, and I don't think you would be able to tell what camera made them.

I've been following these forums for years. I remember when both Michael, and many members, were smitten with Canon gear. Times change, and most of the current praise on these forums is for Sony and Nikon gear, as it should be when it comes to cameras. Indeed, I have often thought of buying the Sony a7rII (now III) for the better DR it offers. So, I'll give you that Canon cameras have not been innovative, but I have to disagree with that when it comes to lenses. In my opinion, Canon leads the innovation parade when it comes to lenses.

Mary

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opgr

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 01:45:22 PM »

Innovation = Canon leading the way to CMOS nirvana

Innovation = not another iteration of a lens. In fact: I have a strong suspicion that the anti-reflection coatings is where the digital and mirrorless lens wars are won, and that Canon (and perhaps Nikon too) are gradually losing terrain there. i.e. being able to manufacture more compact lenses that mount closer to the sensor and allow PDAF. That's just a suspicion on my part though. 

Also consider Canon's batterylife: and imagine wanting quicker and more robust autofocus performance a la their top-end DSLRs.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2018, 05:50:49 PM »

I agree that Canon has not produced any new ground breaking cameras in several years, but their lens lineup allows me to create images that no other 35mm system can offer.

The Canon tilt-shift lineup outpaces any other manufacturer (17mm, 24mm, 50mm, 90mm, 135mm, all with the ability to change the tilt/shift orientation, and three with 1/2 life-size macro capability). The macro lens lineup includes the unique MP-E 65mm, which has 1x-5x macro capabilities. Telephoto lenses with image stabilization were introduced by Canon years before they were available from other companies. The 200-400mm with built in 1.4 TC stood alone until the recent announcement by Nikon. The 8-15mm fisheye to rectilinear lens has been available since 2010, and has only recently been introduced by Nikon. Canon was also the first company to introduce DO lenses. I could go on, but suffice to say I would have switched to Nikon when the D800 came out, but the Canon lens lineup continued to keep me in their camp.

I understand that most photographers can make the photos they want with standard lenses (the 24-70s and 70-200s, for example), and so they can easily switch from one great body to another, regardless of manufacturer, if they can afford to take the losses incurred when switching systems. However, I own and use many of the above mentioned Canon lenses, and switching to a company that offers less creative options does not make sense for me.

Do other companies offer cameras and lenses that I would like to have? Of course. But none that I know of offer the whole package that Canon produces. Can some of the work these lenses allow me to do be created in Photoshop? Yes, but I prefer to get what I want in camera, and not spend any more time than I have to working on images in PS. Do my prints suffer because I don't have the best cameras available? Perhaps, but I can easily make 40 x 60 prints if that is what the customer wants, and I don't think you would be able to tell what camera made them.

I've been following these forums for years. I remember when both Michael, and many members, were smitten with Canon gear. Times change, and most of the current praise on these forums is for Sony and Nikon gear, as it should be when it comes to cameras. Indeed, I have often thought of buying the Sony a7rII (now III) for the better DR it offers. So, I'll give you that Canon cameras have not been innovative, but I have to disagree with that when it comes to lenses. In my opinion, Canon leads the innovation parade when it comes to lenses.

It is always possible to look at a given era and to identify an innovation leader. ;)

Nikon released crazy fisheye lenses, a 300mm f2.0, an amazing macro line up in the 80s and 90s,... It took more than 10 years for Canon to release a 200-400 f4 and Nikon is now at their 3rd generation already. The 14-24 f2.8 was the best ultra wide lens for 6 or 7 years with no competition,...

But overall I do agree that there was a time when Canon was a true innovation leader. Although Nikon had invented the concept, Canon were the ones tuning lens stabilization into something useful and they invented modern auto-focus. They took a lead in super tele in terms of weight reduction that Nikon needed some years to catch up with.

I would say that Canon is probably more in tune with the voice of their pro users while Nikon sometimes feels like a bunch of engineers doing the stuff they like.

Even on the lens front though, I feel that the innovation at Canon has slowed down a lot.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 06:57:28 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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scooby70

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2018, 06:16:00 PM »

Although Nikon had invented the concept, they were the ones tuning lens stabilization into something useful and they invented modern auto-focus. They took a lead in super tele in terms of weight reduction that Nikon needed some years to catch up with.

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but Nikon didn't invent AF did they? And they weren't the first to use it were they?

Maybe Nikon "invented modern auto-focus" in the sense that they were the first to implement it in a Nikon? :D
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2018, 06:53:15 PM »

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but Nikon didn't invent AF did they? And they weren't the first to use it were they?

Maybe Nikon "invented modern auto-focus" in the sense that they were the first to implement it in a Nikon? :D

I meant "Canon were the ones tuning lens stabilization into something useful and they invented modern auto-focus." ;)

I have corrected to avoid any possible view that I don't value Canon as an innovative company.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 06:58:01 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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I meant "Canon ... invented modern auto-focus."
Arguably, the Canon EOS AF system was the sixth effort at an AF camera after Leica(!), Konica, Polaroid, Pentax, Nikon and Minolta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus#History though I have heard that Canon had an earlier AF system, abandoned like many of those others.

More seriously, I think that Minolta has a serious claim for the first modern autofocus SLR system with A-mount and the Maxxum 7000. But Canon vs Nikon chest beating contests tend to overlook contributions from elsewhere.
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BernardLanguillier

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More seriously, I think that Minolta has a serious claim for the first modern autofocus SLR system with A-mount and the Maxxum 7000. But Canon vs Nikon chest beating contests tend to overlook contributions from elsewhere.

Yes, you are right. But in lenses piezo motors were IMHO the breakthrough that made AF on moving subjects a reality and Canon came up with these.

Cheers,
Bernard

bobtrlin

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 01:16:47 AM »

Seems to me that Olympus is a true innovator.  AFAIK they were first with 4/3, m4/3, mirrorless, in-camera IS, supersonic sensor cleaning and remote flash control.  Also Sigma has the foveon and Sony the sensors.  By being the innovators, they wear the risk of failure and the cost of development.  The big boys prefer to rely on refinement rather than innovation.  They can afford to wait for good patents to expire then improve them and in most cases they succeed admirably.  Perhaps that's what they consider innovation.
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Dan Vincent

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2018, 09:30:43 AM »

Seems to me that Olympus is a true innovator.  AFAIK they were first with 4/3, m4/3, mirrorless, in-camera IS, supersonic sensor cleaning and remote flash control.  Also Sigma has the foveon and Sony the sensors.  By being the innovators, they wear the risk of failure and the cost of development.  The big boys prefer to rely on refinement rather than innovation.  They can afford to wait for good patents to expire then improve them and in most cases they succeed admirably.  Perhaps that's what they consider innovation.

Minolta invented both optical wireless flash control and in-body IS.

scooby70

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Arguably, the Canon EOS AF system was the sixth effort at an AF camera after Leica(!), Konica, Polaroid, Pentax, Nikon and Minolta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus#History though I have heard that Canon had an earlier AF system, abandoned like many of those others.

More seriously, I think that Minolta has a serious claim for the first modern autofocus SLR system with A-mount and the Maxxum 7000. But Canon vs Nikon chest beating contests tend to overlook contributions from elsewhere.

I think that some manufacturer claims should have the marketing departments cringing as they come up with them and in reality come down to meaningless things almost to the point of something like "Canon were the first to release the Canon 7D" :D
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bobtrlin

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Re: Canon is the undisputed innovation leader!
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2018, 06:52:46 PM »

Minolta invented both optical wireless flash control and in-body IS.
Thanks!  I didn't know.  Did they actually use it or just patent it?  Does Sony use it now?
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