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Author Topic: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space  (Read 5860 times)

The View

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Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« on: January 04, 2018, 03:45:59 am »

My TIFFs are all in ProPhoto RGB.

I noticed that images that use a lot of Cyan or blue look not the same on the Bridge Preview.
I almost threw away an image because its colors looked flat. Then I opened it up in Photoshop, and the colors were back. It was only the Bridge Preview that had dead colors (replacing a vibrant Cyan with something boring and flat)

Does Bridge only show previews in sRGB? Can I change that?

I went to color settings and it is synchronized in "North America General Purpose 2" Not sure if this has any influence.

I could not find any menu that sets the color space of the preview.

Why do we still have to put up with the awful sRGB color space with its almost complete lack of Cyan and its poor blues and flat reds?

How can I preview my images in their proper color space?
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nirpat89

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2018, 09:28:19 am »

My TIFFs are all in ProPhoto RGB.

I noticed that images that use a lot of Cyan or blue look not the same on the Bridge Preview.
I almost threw away an image because its colors looked flat. Then I opened it up in Photoshop, and the colors were back. It was only the Bridge Preview that had dead colors (replacing a vibrant Cyan with something boring and flat)

Does Bridge only show previews in sRGB? Can I change that?

I went to color settings and it is synchronized in "North America General Purpose 2" Not sure if this has any influence.

I could not find any menu that sets the color space of the preview.

Why do we still have to put up with the awful sRGB color space with its almost complete lack of Cyan and its poor blues and flat reds?

How can I preview my images in their proper color space?

If Bridge is synchronized in North America General Purpose 2, that means your Photoshop Color Settings are set to that as well.  The working space in North America General Purpose 2 is sRGB.  You should change it to ProPhoto RGB which is supposed to be the colorspace of your original document.  You should also check the Profile Mismatching Ask When Opening so you know when the document has a different colorspace than that specified in the Color Settings.  Sync in Bridge is connected to the Color Setting colorspace, not the document colorspace.
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The View

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2018, 11:39:15 am »

I would never work in sRGB.

I changed the working color space in Photoshop to ProPhoto RGB.

In Bridge I now get a "not synchronized". If I click "synchronize" Adobe switches the working color space of Photoshop back to sRGB.

And I switch it back to ProPhoto RGB and then I get again "not synchronized".

So Bridge cannot handle ProPhoto RGB?

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digitaldog

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2018, 11:57:36 am »

A: you don't have to have Bridge sync with anything else if you don't wish to; it doesn't have to be in sync with other Adobe products.
B: previews are likely to be in sRGB unless something has changed. Certainly for untagged data (otherwise, it's color managed). There's a cache or was for such previews.
C: always view a preview at 100% and the image elsewhere (Photoshop) at 100% side by side to evaluate preview color matching!
Yes, Bridge previews images in ProPhoto RGB correctly (at least CC does).
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digitaldog

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2018, 11:58:56 am »

I would never work in sRGB.
I consider sRGB an output color space who's only useful role is to upload to the web and mobile devices (today, not so in the future).
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The View

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2018, 01:13:50 pm »

I consider sRGB an output color space who's only useful role is to upload to the web and mobile devices (today, not so in the future).

exactly! And I wish the web would finally abandon it for Adobe RGB or something like it. We don't have that tiny data throughput of 1995 any more and the horrendous displays from back then.

The internet needs updating.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2018, 01:16:06 pm »

exactly! And I wish the web would finally abandon it for Adobe RGB or something like it.
It's not the web, it's web browsers. When fully color managed, you can upload any color space that's tagged as such. The assumption of sRGB, which is silly, works if the display is kind of, sort of, maybe in the ballpark of sRGB without color management. But that's still a hack. Use color management and any color space is fair game. The fact is, sRGB without color management doesn't guarantee anything and certainly not color matching.
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The View

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2018, 01:27:05 pm »

It's not the web, it's web browsers. When fully color managed, you can upload any color space that's tagged as such. The assumption of sRGB, which is silly, works if the display is kind of, sort of, maybe in the ballpark of sRGB without color management. But that's still a hack. Use color management and any color space is fair game. The fact is, sRGB without color management doesn't guarantee anything and certainly not color matching.

It's just that most people don't have calibrated monitors, and using Adobe RGB on web images would make the browsers convert them to sRGB - and it would look horrible.

Which is why my online portfolio is in sRGB (s**tRGB)

So far I have not heard of any way to post images in a good color space that can be seen well on most people's browsers and mobile devices (almost 50% of the views on my website)

While people who come to my website are more sophisticated and work in fashion or publishing, many have a totally unsophisticated computer setup.
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The View

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2018, 01:27:26 pm »

A: you don't have to have Bridge sync with anything else if you don't wish to; it doesn't have to be in sync with other Adobe products.
B: previews are likely to be in sRGB unless something has changed. Certainly for untagged data (otherwise, it's color managed). There's a cache or was for such previews.
C: always view a preview at 100% and the image elsewhere (Photoshop) at 100% side by side to evaluate preview color matching!
Yes, Bridge previews images in ProPhoto RGB correctly (at least CC does).

I am on Bridge CC 2017 and at least my Bridge software only outputs sRGB.

This was the reason for the post: I had a portrait with a rich, cyan background, and it fell so flat in Bridge that I opened up Photoshop and the difference was like day and night.

How can I get Bridge to display previews in ProPhoto RGB?

I purged the cache for that particular picture after I set the working color space to ProPhoto RGB.

The preview was rebuilt - again in sRGB.

How can I force Bridge to display in the tagged color space?

PS: Bridge metadata displays color mode: RGB Color profile: CanonEOS5DMk3-Generic bit depth: 16
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digitaldog

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2018, 01:28:23 pm »

It's just that most people don't have calibrated monitors, and using Adobe RGB on web images would make the browsers convert them to sRGB - and it would look horrible.

If they buy a newer wide gamut display, sRGB looks awful and Adobe RGB (1998) looks 'better':

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2
In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:
When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices
How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check
The downsides of an all sRGB workflow
sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices
The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology
Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output


High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4[/font]
Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs[/font]
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digitaldog

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2018, 01:31:11 pm »

I am on Bridge CC 2017 and at least my Bridge software only outputs sRGB.

This was the reason for the post: I had a portrait with a rich, cyan background, and it fell so flat in Bridge that I opened up Photoshop and the difference was like day and night.

How can I get Bridge to display previews in ProPhoto RGB?

I purged the cache for that particular picture after I set the working color space to ProPhoto RGB.

The preview was rebuilt - again in sRGB.

How can I force Bridge to display in the tagged color space?

PS: Bridge metadata displays color mode: RGB Color profile: CanonEOS5DMk3-Generic bit depth: 16
There's nothing to force. It should show you previews correctly. Try recalibrating your display again and forcing a new profile to be built.
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nirpat89

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2018, 07:06:48 pm »

I would never work in sRGB.

I changed the working color space in Photoshop to ProPhoto RGB.

In Bridge I now get a "not synchronized". If I click "synchronize" Adobe switches the working color space of Photoshop back to sRGB.

And I switch it back to ProPhoto RGB and then I get again "not synchronized".

So Bridge cannot handle ProPhoto RGB?

As far as I know Bridge can handle anything Photoshop can.  I think I understand where the problem is:

First set your Color Settings profile in Photoshop with ProPhoto and save it with a name, e.g. MyProPhotoSettings.  That is very important.  If you do not save, then hitting Apply in Bridge Color Settings to sync will revert back to North America General Purpose 2, in Bridge and in Photoshop as well. 

(Note:  Just because your Color Settings in Photoshop are set to sRGB, does not mean the document will be opened in sRGB.  If your document is ProPhoto, Photoshop will open in ProPhoto regardless of what is in the the Color Setting panel.  If you have Profile Mismatching Ask When Opening checked, a good practice, then it would ask if you want to convert the document or keep it as is.  Otherwise it will simply open it in the colorspace the document is in.) 

Once you save the parameters and choose it as your Color Settings in Photoshop, go back to Bridge and apply sync. Now both would have chosen MyProPhotoSettings.   And your images should look identical in Bridge as well as Photoshop.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2018, 07:49:23 pm »

I'm seeing the same problem in the preview window when viewing ProPhoto tiff files. They are shown clipped to sRGB. Even when us8ing custom settings per nirpat89.

I hadn't noticed this before but then I don't use the preview window for anything other than finding files and quickly checking them.

Easy way to see this is open Andrew's gamut_test_file_flat,tif which is in ProPhoto in Photoshop and alongside it view it in the preview window in BR. Set the soft proof in Photoshop to sRGB then toggle back and forth. The preview in BR matches the sRGB soft proof. Easy to see as there are may parts of the image beyond sRGB.

This is on a Windows 10 machine with CG318 running at native gamut. Might be different on a Mac.
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nirpat89

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2018, 08:22:00 pm »

So I could be wrong...my last statement "your images should look identical in Bridge as well as Photoshop" may not be correct. 

It is likely that Bridge itself is not color-managed (how is that possible!) The only thing the Sync does is make the color settings of all the other applications like Photoshop, In-Design etc the same.  Kind of a central control.  Like Doug I never paid close attention to the discrepancy between Bridge and Photoshop.


Addendum:

Found this statement on Adobe Forum-

Bridge previews all images in sRGB regardless of the workspace. This is because Bridge generates previews in 8-bit sRGB (relative colormetric intent) and stores them in a cache as JPEGs.

Sorry if this has already been said. I didn't read the whole thread.


https://forums.adobe.com/message/5180301#5180301

So there you have it.  Learn something new everyday.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 08:34:00 pm by nirpat89 »
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Doug Gray

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2018, 09:52:38 pm »

So I could be wrong...my last statement "your images should look identical in Bridge as well as Photoshop" may not be correct. 

It is likely that Bridge itself is not color-managed (how is that possible!) The only thing the Sync does is make the color settings of all the other applications like Photoshop, In-Design etc the same.  Kind of a central control.  Like Doug I never paid close attention to the discrepancy between Bridge and Photoshop.


Addendum:

Found this statement on Adobe Forum-

Bridge previews all images in sRGB regardless of the workspace. This is because Bridge generates previews in 8-bit sRGB (relative colormetric intent) and stores them in a cache as JPEGs.

Sorry if this has already been said. I didn't read the whole thread.


https://forums.adobe.com/message/5180301#5180301

So there you have it.  Learn something new everyday.

nirpat89,
Well, that's not much of an excuse. How hard would it be to at least store thumbnails as 8 bit Adobe RGB. Then it would be far more visually compatible for peeps that had wide gamut monitors and presumably they could still color manage the thumbnails to sRGB for more limited monitors.

OTOH, interesting that this doesn't come up more often.
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The View

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2018, 01:22:52 am »

nirpat89,
Well, that's not much of an excuse. How hard would it be to at least store thumbnails as 8 bit Adobe RGB. Then it would be far more visually compatible for peeps that had wide gamut monitors and presumably they could still color manage the thumbnails to sRGB for more limited monitors.

OTOH, interesting that this doesn't come up more often.

Absolutely. I'm always amazed how software stacks up on often unnecessary features and fails on absolute basics. So the car has an eight cylinder engine, but the transmission has only two gears.

In Capture One Pro 11, after many complaints, the previews are totally blurry and you cannot even adjust contrast because you are basically flying blind. And you can't just go in 100% (where it is not blurry) because you need to see the whole image to judge contrast.

And after 25 years Bridge can't even display proper previews - I mean you really have to open images in Photoshop to compare them, and you can't compare them side by side in the browser, and you can't just look at your work in the browser because what you see isn't what you have.

I think there's a lack of professionalism. Just because 90% or more don't notice these failings, they don't fix it. Marketing departments have the power over the techs.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 12:10:34 pm »

And after 25 years Bridge can't even display proper previews -
There's nothing not proper. There's a conversion for the thumbnails, so what? Some colors may clip IF (big if) the image has a gamut that exceeds sRGB and (big and), you're viewing on a wide gamut display. Otherwise sRGB thumbnails are fine. And the same issue shows up in Lightroom (previews outside Develop use Adobe RGB (1998) but the limitations still exist). It's not like the thumb's are not color managed, they are.

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Doug Gray

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 12:50:46 pm »

There's nothing not proper. There's a conversion for the thumbnails, so what? Some colors may clip IF (big if) the image has a gamut that exceeds sRGB and (big and), you're viewing on a wide gamut display. Otherwise sRGB thumbnails are fine. And the same issue shows up in Lightroom (previews outside Develop use Adobe RGB (1998) but the limitations still exist). It's not like the thumb's are not color managed, they are.

I misstated. Thumbnails have nothing to do with previews and I don't think "The View" was complaining about anything other than the Preview Window being rendered in sRGB.

Thumbnails are cached but previews are not. Previews are rendered at full resolution for whatever size the preview window is whenever a thumbnail is selected. Rendering the Preview Window in sRGB is rather dumb as it slows BR down because rendering first to sRGB then to the monitor's color space requires two steps. Rendering directly to the monitor's space would require only one.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 01:03:52 pm »

There's lots of stuff in Bridge that's dumb. That's another reason I use Lightroom but I have need for more than a simple, free browser.
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Re: Bridge CC 2017 previews not in the correct color space
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2018, 06:02:41 pm »

I consider sRGB an output color space who's only useful role is to upload to the web and mobile devices (today, not so in the future).
There's another reason to use sRGB though - as a way of controlling gamut mapping, given that the final image to output conversion is highly likely to be colorimetric intent. (i.e. an "output referred" image format), or in any case will be a situation in which the final conversion has no fast way of knowing what the gamut of your image is, or has no mechanism for creating tailored gamut mappings, even if it did know your image gamut.

It's an aspect of the large color gamut format problem - use a large color gamut encoding, and the encoding is no longer a good representation of the gamut of the image. So if you want to have some sort of control over how your image is gamut mapped, you either need to control the gamut mapping of the final conversion (not practical when you are just putting the image "out there" using current standards), or pre-render it the way you want to a gamut that isn't likely to be a problem when clipped (or ideally gamut mapped from sRGB) to the final display - i.e. sRGB.

So I'm agreeing with you, but the usage is a bit broader than just web and mobile, and won't go away even if profile tagged images are more widely supported.
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