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Author Topic: Andreas Bitesnich  (Read 1794 times)

GrahamBy

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2018, 11:05:19 AM »

I wonder, should those of us who are straight with wives, partners, girlfriends and boyfriends just keep it to ourselves and not mention them here? Should those here who are gay really stay shtum and keep it within their clubs and magazines?

Excellent point, although I can respect Rob's desire not to look.

It would be nice to say that gay photographers have treated their models better, but in fact it seems that male models have been abused at much the same rate as the women. Whether the heavy presence of gay men within the fashion industry has resulted in systematic abuse through the products they've induced women to wear would be a too-long discussion...

My personal opinion is that there is a market for images of intimacy, which may or not be connected with increasing isolation, forces of marketing etc etc... and that a relatively easy way of creating images that fill that need is to go for the shock-value of the explicitly sexual. It seems that Richardson's modus was to take rather young and vulnerable models and throw them into a frenetic party mood where they did things without having time to think... and by the time their doubts appeared, they were already out the door.

Pornography is too difficult a classification for me: I've seen images of genitalia alone or in concert that I've simply found beautiful, and photos which meet all the tick-box conditions for social media acceptability that seem incredibly crass, violent and insulting. I suspect that setting up censorship teams, or even censorship robots, tends to favour the creation of the second type of image :(
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Rob C

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2018, 11:07:28 AM »


"I wonder, should those of us who are straight with wives, husbands, partners, girlfriends and boyfriends just keep it to ourselves and not mention them here? Should those here who are gay really stay shtum and keep it within their clubs and magazines?"

Or, we could all go fantasize!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub0XS8OZGB8

;-)

Rob C

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2018, 11:25:18 AM »

Excellent point, although I can respect Rob's desire not to look.

It would be nice to say that gay photographers have treated their models better, but in fact it seems that male models have been abused at much the same rate as the women. Whether the heavy presence of gay men within the fashion industry has resulted in systematic abuse through the products they've induced women to wear would be a too-long discussion...

My personal opinion is that there is a market for images of intimacy, which may or not be connected with increasing isolation, forces of marketing etc etc... and that a relatively easy way of creating images that fill that need is to go for the shock-value of the explicitly sexual. It seems that Richardson's modus was to take rather young and vulnerable models and throw them into a frenetic party mood where they did things without having time to think... and by the time their doubts appeared, they were already out the door.

Pornography is too difficult a classification for me: I've seen images of genitalia alone or in concert that I've simply found beautiful, and photos which meet all the tick-box conditions for social media acceptability that seem incredibly crass, violent and insulting. I suspect that setting up censorship teams, or even censorship robots, tends to favour the creation of the second type of image :(

Nobody is forcing women to buy fashion extravaganzas.

It's a mistake to think of the fashion industry in the same sense as the garment trade. Fashion sells brand, and to a very, very tiny minority of women with the money to blow an unthinking couple of grand on a pair of knickers. I don't know anybody who ever bought an original, made-to-measure dress from Versace but I do know someone who shops regularly at a branch of Versace. Not the same deal. High fashion, as I said, sells brand and, above all else, perfume.

Closer to home, my wife always wore Chanel No.5 exclusively (semi-tautology?) but would never have thought of buying a Chanel item of clothing. Publicity of the one creates awareness of the other.

Oh well, out of asprins, so better walk to the chemist for the rest of the fixes... doesn't life improve with the passing years!

KLaban

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2018, 11:33:45 AM »

Excellent point, although I can respect Rob's desire not to look.

It would be nice to say that gay photographers have treated their models better, but in fact it seems that male models have been abused at much the same rate as the women. Whether the heavy presence of gay men within the fashion industry has resulted in systematic abuse through the products they've induced women to wear would be a too-long discussion...

My personal opinion is that there is a market for images of intimacy, which may or not be connected with increasing isolation, forces of marketing etc etc... and that a relatively easy way of creating images that fill that need is to go for the shock-value of the explicitly sexual. It seems that Richardson's modus was to take rather young and vulnerable models and throw them into a frenetic party mood where they did things without having time to think... and by the time their doubts appeared, they were already out the door.

Pornography is too difficult a classification for me: I've seen images of genitalia alone or in concert that I've simply found beautiful, and photos which meet all the tick-box conditions for social media acceptability that seem incredibly crass, violent and insulting. I suspect that setting up censorship teams, or even censorship robots, tends to favour the creation of the second type of image :(

Well, it would seem that it was consensual abuse. I don't know whether to laugh or cry!
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GrahamBy

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2018, 11:38:45 AM »

If you carry out a medical trial in which participants deeply regret signing the consent form and are offered no way to de-consent... you will be shut down.
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Rob C

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2018, 02:19:07 PM »

If you carry out a medical trial in which participants deeply regret signing the consent form and are offered no way to de-consent... you will be shut down.


Which is what happened - I don't know for how long - with our Terry: several top fashion mags closed their doors to him.

However, I'm not so sure it was all coercion that had unpleasant things happen, or even that all of our heroines objected. I remember a snap of our icon, Kate, walking down a beach, coat open in the breeze to reveal a flourishing pubic area. Did she, one of the top-earners in the model business, need coercion, could anyone pressure her, or would it be the other way around?

In all of this, don't forget the effects of snow. And it wasn't just photographers that were held to account: the model agency, Elite, one of the most successful in the world, had serious problems through allegations regarding young models and a director of that agency... It, showbiz, has always been a dangerous game for the young of either gender. People use your own desires for fame and success to further their own desires for you. It's very hard for youth to refuse, when just a little bit of rationalisation makes it all seem so little for a potential so much.

But the hell with it; I'm here to talk photography, and other people's morals, hang ups etc. are not truly my bag: I'm far too old to find them novel, interesting or magically revealing. I simply see them as bloody dangerous. AIDS, anyone?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 02:25:43 PM by Rob C »
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Rob C

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2018, 02:31:37 PM »

Graham, regarding the nude and topless shots you posted: they leave me cold because they have no point. I far prefer looking at your own images of young women because they come with some style and are nor stupidly posed in unlikely, uncomfortable and unexplainable positions. (Anyway, didn't Amazons have one removed so as not to impede the bowstring?)

The French used to call the art "charme" which, to me, explains the big difference between the stuff that appeals to me and that which does not, even if not at all pornographic.

Rob

GrahamBy

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2018, 06:25:09 AM »

The shot of Lisa Lyon firing the arrow was meant to illustrate a photo that left me cold, so point proved.
The one of Patti Smith (crouched and holding the heating pipes) speaks to me... I think because of the eyes that engage with the viewer, but maybe because I already know some of the history. Yet I'm not actually much of a fan of Smith's music :) The two bald men because it seems to contain some real affection... it's far more interesting to me than his bondage shots, which were intentionally (so they say) shot with a lot of emotional distance. At the same time it was transgressive because of the US racism issue, whose consequences continue to an extent I'd never have guessed.

Mapplethorpe I find interesting: none of his images stun me, but somehow he represents a window into a time when the world was re-arranging itself. I'm sure that other people were taking better photos at the time, but Mapplethorpe is the one who is most available because of the random action of fame.

Anyway, the most beautiful and engaging photo I've seen for weeks is this one by Michel Valdrighi... no people, no movement, no political significance, just  fascinating examination of the ordinary from an unexpected angle...
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Rob C

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2018, 07:23:32 AM »

Now you've ruined my lunch: I'm trying to figure out what the hell that driver was trying to do - whether he knew if he were coming or going...

:-)

Rob

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2018, 05:29:24 PM »

Anyway, the most beautiful and engaging photo I've seen for weeks is this one by Michel Valdrighi... no people, no movement, no political significance, just fascinating examination of the ordinary from an unexpected angle...

That's terrific…like Fan Ho stuck in a cold locale.

I really like the Mapplethorpe photo of Patti Smith too. The geometry of it. It kinda thumbs its nose at the fashion/beauty thing as well, which makes me like it even more.  :)

-Dave-
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2018, 07:11:03 PM »

Now you've ruined my lunch: I'm trying to figure out what the hell that driver was trying to do - whether he knew if he were coming or going...

:-)

Rob

And me, Rob.  It's like an Agatha Christie mystery. The evidence is there. The driver returned alone to the car after it snowed, got in and drove away.  But those other marks?  I can't resolve their origin. 

Anybody?
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GrahamBy

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2018, 04:49:14 AM »

But those other marks?  I can't resolve their origin. 


Other marks?

It's a beautiful demonstration of the way front and rear wheels react to steering. There is the mysterious second change of steering that probably wasn't needed: he or she started forward, hesitated, stopped and reversed a tiny bit, cranked the wheel a little more left and left.

But are there other things that I'm not seeing?
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Rob C

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Re: Andreas Bitesnich
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2018, 07:33:02 AM »

Other marks?

It's a beautiful demonstration of the way front and rear wheels react to steering. There is the mysterious second change of steering that probably wasn't needed: he or she started forward, hesitated, stopped and reversed a tiny bit, cranked the wheel a little more left and left.

But are there other things that I'm not seeing?

Of course: the car, for a start! But wait: perhaps it's the real, victimless crime?

;-)
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