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Author Topic: New article - printing with Imageprint  (Read 4611 times)

andrewrodney

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2018, 09:48:41 AM »

Yes the old version of IP was challenging to use.  Things are better now :-)

I have not printed the test.  I like the colors I get and they match my screen so I am happy.  What matters to me is that IP prints the colors that I  use.  It may not print the colors I don' t use (although that remains to be seen) but then since I don't use these colors it's not a problem.  Worrying about this is a little like worrying that your art supply store does not carry all the oil paint colors of a given manufacturer (say Windsor & Newton) even though you never use the colors that store does not carry ...  Why worry?

I do understand that knowing if IP can render every color in the visual spectrum can be a subject of interest from an engineer's perspective.  But then I am not an engineer, I am an artist.

Many color in my document will NOT match your display! Impossible. As to how the blues print for you, we will never know although I’d be happy to send an 8.5-11 sheet for a single print should your curiosity ever peek.
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Andrew Rodney
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alainbriot

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2018, 12:05:51 PM »

Many color in my document will NOT match your display! Impossible. As to how the blues print for you, we will never know although I’d be happy to send an 8.5-11 sheet for a single print should your curiosity ever peek.

I do appreciate your offer Rodney but I'll pass.  I like the colors that IP prints even though I (perhaps) don't see them on my screen. In short, I am happy.  If I need you to send me a print to visualize what I cannot see on my screen that IP cannot print I am afraid this gets far too abstract for me.  As I said I am an artist, not an engineer, and I much prefer to use my time creating art than gettting lost in abstract gamut considerations.

andrewrodney

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2018, 12:15:22 PM »

I do appreciate your offer Rodney but I'll pass.  I like the colors that IP prints even though I (perhaps) don't see them on my screen. In short, I am happy.  If I need you to send me a print to visualize what I cannot see on my screen that IP cannot print I am afraid this gets far too abstract for me.  As I said I am an artist, not an engineer, and I much prefer to use my time creating art than gettting lost in abstract gamut considerations.
So much for curiosity Briot. 
So you understand that NO printer (using IP or not) can print all of sRGB. So much for actual gamut considerations. There are lots of colors you can print, with or without IP you can't see on your display. The bigger issue is how those colors print and blue's should print blue, not shift magenta.
I could of course reload IP version 6 (got a silver dongle) but I know what it will do with blues; I was using this product, installing it for customers long before it made the necessarily leap to OS X. So while I have a lot and long past experience with the software, nothing prior version 6 which, acceptably dealt with blues. Blues should not print magenta. You can edit them not to, but that's not an excuse for blues printing magenta.
Now as to WHY I stopped using IP 6, aside from their (at the time alone?) profile issues mapping blues (which I can of course build using the product, without a magenta shift), that's another story.
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Andrew Rodney
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drralph

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2018, 02:13:36 PM »

The point in the article that most captured my interest was in "7.  My Approach."  I too have recognized that my prints are uniformly dark as compared to the screen image.  I long for an easy and reproducible way to have files optimized for print and for screen, and to preserve and keep track of each version.  But for a low volume printer like me, the price of IP is tough to swallow.

In the piece, Alain notes that this adjustment can be done in LR or Photoshop.  If one chooses this option, what is the best workflow for this process?  What is the best way to preserve/label/recall the print and screen versions of images?  Separate files with unique adjustments?  An adjustment layer in PS that can be turned on and off?  Alain says that the adjustment is the same every time.  What is the best way to have the adjustment in the can, waiting to be laid on?
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andrewrodney

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2018, 02:28:14 PM »

The point in the article that most captured my interest was in "7.  My Approach."  I too have recognized that my prints are uniformly dark as compared to the screen image.  I long for an easy and reproducible way to have files optimized for print and for screen, and to preserve and keep track of each version.
That's where something like an NEC SpectraView comes in so handy! Multiple calibrations for differing needs, all take place in the panel with the associated ICC display profile being loaded on the fly.
Quote
What is the best way to preserve/label/recall the print and screen versions of images?  Separate files with unique adjustments?  An adjustment layer in PS that can be turned on and off?  Alain says that the adjustment is the same every time.  What is the best way to have the adjustment in the can, waiting to be laid on?
What's great about LR is you can setup a soft proof, you can create as many virtual copies (Print Copies) with output specific edits that require no increase in disk storage to do so; they are virtual.
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Andrew Rodney
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alainbriot

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2018, 02:45:47 PM »

In the piece, Alain notes that this adjustment can be done in LR or Photoshop.  If one chooses this option, what is the best workflow for this process?  What is the best way to preserve/label/recall the print and screen versions of images?  Separate files with unique adjustments?  An adjustment layer in PS that can be turned on and off?  Alain says that the adjustment is the same every time.  What is the best way to have the adjustment in the can, waiting to be laid on?

Either keep 2 separate files, one with the lightening adjustment and one without, or redo the lightening adjustment each time you print.  It's always the same adjustment so you can create a preset, in Lightroom, or an action, in Photoshop, to apply it automatically. 

loganross

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2018, 04:14:59 PM »

I have been using imageprint for about 5 years. It has more than paid for itself. Layout options, print stage sharpening and corrections, text (for example - to include a hi res image title at the bottom of the print). These are all reasons I use it.  Their support team (Daniel and Irene) are amazing as well.

Recently, I have been curious as to whether I can have better color profiles made. I had some made by the well regarded Chromix company. While the prints are reasonably close, they are different. I have only done a few test prints, such as fall foliage.  So far it appears that I have less out of gamut color with imageprint, and (perhaps as a result?), a little more detail in certain areas. This is confirmed by comparing the image print profiles to the other profiles for various papers - using Photoshop proof colors with gamut warning turned on. I also compare the prints themselves.

 You can make your own color icc profiles and use them within imageprint.  But, even if I were able to develop better profiles, I would still use ImagePrint for all the reasons I mentioned above. With regards to cost, the no-charge profiles makes a huge difference. High quality profiles from profiling services can cost you up to $100 each. While I have 4-5 papers I generally use, I often use various other  papers for specific projects.  That would add up for traditional profile services, and then when you change your printer, you would have to start all over again. That is not for me 😀

Regarding Canon, the do support the more recent models, but I believe the direct hardware support (bypassing the printer driver like they do with Epson) is coming in the next few months.

BTW, I have a P800. If only image print could fix the need for Epson black ink swap 😀
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loganross

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2018, 05:46:04 PM »

For a long time, I had problems with dark prints. I don't any more. I attribute it to a proper calibrated monitor, workflow, and viewing under sufficient lighting (usually the cause when I think a print is too dark). One of the most recent 'working with the Masters LL videos' here talks specifically about dark print issues. It is fascinating, including the discussion on the impact of selecting the image border color around the photo you are editing. I think most people leave the border around the image in LR as black. Since my prints have white borders on my prints, I use a white border in the app.  Makes a huge difference in terms of gauging lightness and avoiding the dark print problem.  I highly recommend you look at that video.  I have not found that Imageprint creates or solves the dark print issue.


The point in the article that most captured my interest was in "7.  My Approach."  I too have recognized that my prints are uniformly dark as compared to the screen image.  I long for an easy and reproducible way to have files optimized for print and for screen, and to preserve and keep track of each version.  But for a low volume printer like me, the price of IP is tough to swallow.

In the piece, Alain notes that this adjustment can be done in LR or Photoshop.  If one chooses this option, what is the best workflow for this process?  What is the best way to preserve/label/recall the print and screen versions of images?  Separate files with unique adjustments?  An adjustment layer in PS that can be turned on and off?  Alain says that the adjustment is the same every time.  What is the best way to have the adjustment in the can, waiting to be laid on?
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loganross

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2018, 05:51:44 PM »

I would love to hear that story, although I doubt it would change my mind on using image print. Bottom line is that it works extremely well for me.

They do have a demo of imageprint 10. You could download, test, and let us know whether you feel the same way about modern versions of Imageprint.  Lots has changed since v.6, and I assume you are now using a different printer, which might also make a difference.  I like digging deep into the technical stuff, so it would be really interesting.

So much for curiosity Briot. 
So you understand that NO printer (using IP or not) can print all of sRGB. So much for actual gamut considerations. There are lots of colors you can print, with or without IP you can't see on your display. The bigger issue is how those colors print and blue's should print blue, not shift magenta.
I could of course reload IP version 6 (got a silver dongle) but I know what it will do with blues; I was using this product, installing it for customers long before it made the necessarily leap to OS X. So while I have a lot and long past experience with the software, nothing prior version 6 which, acceptably dealt with blues. Blues should not print magenta. You can edit them not to, but that's not an excuse for blues printing magenta.
Now as to WHY I stopped using IP 6, aside from their (at the time alone?) profile issues mapping blues (which I can of course build using the product, without a magenta shift), that's another story.
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alainbriot

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2018, 05:53:56 PM »

For a long time, I had problems with dark prints. I don't any more. I attribute it to a proper calibrated monitor, workflow, and viewing under sufficient lighting (usually the cause when I think a print is too dark). One of the most recent 'working with the Masters LL videos' here talks specifically about dark print issues. It is fascinating, including the discussion on the impact of selecting the image border color around the photo you are editing. I think most people leave the border around the image in LR as black. Since my prints have white borders on my prints, I use a white border in the app.  Makes a huge difference in terms of gauging lightness and avoiding the dark print problem.  I highly recommend you look at that video.  I have not found that Imageprint creates or solves the dark print issue.

Totally, absolutely true.  Also recommended is a viewing booth, such as a Just Normlicht Color Master or equivalent, so that you look at your prints under consistent (always the same regardless or time of day, weather, location, etc.) and calibrated (same as your monitor, either 5500 or 6500k) lighting. No more looking at your prints under your desk lamp, no more trips to the backyard during the day to have 'natural light,' or to the garage at night because it is dark outside, or some other print-lighting-horror-story!

However, no, Image Print will not solve the dark print issue we all face.  Nothing will except aplying a print lighting adjustment curve the way I describe in my essay.  There is no sign that this will be automated anytime soon because it is dependent on your viewing enviroment.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 09:39:40 PM by alainbriot »
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andrewrodney

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2018, 06:25:00 PM »

Nothing will except applying a print lighting adjustment curve the way I describe in my essay. 
Or not, as it's not necessary when what you see is what you get in terms of brightness between print and display. Zero adjustment needed (even on the Gamut Test File below).
Prints are either too dark or they are not. The best print ever made (photographic or otherwise) will appear too dark if viewed in too dim an environment. The digital values are either correct or not; altering the display or adding yet another so called print lighting adjustment is simply a goal in producing ideal RGB values. Soft proofing aids hugely too. All of this is far easier to accomplish when the display and the print brightness actually match! And that's doable with display calibration of good quality.
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Andrew Rodney
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loganross

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2018, 09:34:05 PM »

Here is a link to the article with the video regarding Dark Prints and Perception: Luminous Landscape Cramer Video

For a long time, I had problems with dark prints. I don't any more. I attribute it to a proper calibrated monitor, workflow, and viewing under sufficient lighting (usually the cause when I think a print is too dark). One of the most recent 'working with the Masters LL videos' here talks specifically about dark print issues. It is fascinating, including the discussion on the impact of selecting the image border color around the photo you are editing. I think most people leave the border around the image in LR as black. Since my prints have white borders on my prints, I use a white border in the app.  Makes a huge difference in terms of gauging lightness and avoiding the dark print problem.  I highly recommend you look at that video.  I have not found that Imageprint creates or solves the dark print issue.
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loganross

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2018, 10:56:52 PM »

Agreed, with the exception that I have not found the need to do any lightening of the image for the purpose of printing.  Note, it took a few weeks of refining my workflow in order to fully understand the interplay among calibrated monitor, printer, camera profile (I use a custom camera profile in ACR), editing app setup, paper selection, and Imageprint.  Now that I have gone through the process, I get completely predictable results - all the time.



Totally, absolutely true.  Also recommended is a viewing booth, such as a Just Normlicht Color Master or equivalent, so that you look at your prints under consistent (always the same regardless or time of day, weather, location, etc.) and calibrated (same as your monitor, either 5500 or 6500k) lighting. No more looking at your prints under your desk lamp, no more trips to the backyard during the day to have 'natural light,' or to the garage at night because it is dark outside, or some other print-lighting-horror-story!

However, no, Image Print will not solve the dark print issue we all face.  Nothing will except aplying a print lighting adjustment curve the way I describe in my essay.  There is no sign that this will be automated anytime soon because it is dependent on your viewing enviroment.
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loganross

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Color Profile Opinion
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2018, 11:36:08 PM »

I still can't be conclusive on which profiles I like better for "color".  Frankly, I doubt I ever will be able to (Both the IP and Chromix profiles are very good).  As I soft-proof and print more photos, the two become slight variations on what is possible, rather than competitors for what is best.  Is there a benefit to a custom color profile, or has printer performance become so linearized that a profile for your model is good enough?  How much art is left in making the profiles in the first place given how good profiling equipment has become?  Have we simply reached a plateau?

Hats off to both companies.  The holy grail experiment for me will be to experience the Custom profiles used within Imageprint (need to print new targets through Imageprint for that).   I do think I am still getting better detail, and shadow detail printing with Imageprint, but that is likely due to the way it controls the printer (bypassing the Epson driver) and not likly related to the color profile (I could be wrong there).  Moreover, as I mentioned before, I can use IP or custom profiles from within IP, which means I can make the decision on a case by case basis.

Cheers!


I have been using imageprint for about 5 years. It has more than paid for itself. Layout options, print stage sharpening and corrections, text (for example - to include a hi res image title at the bottom of the print). These are all reasons I use it.  Their support team (Daniel and Irene) are amazing as well.

Recently, I have been curious as to whether I can have better color profiles made. I had some made by the well regarded Chromix company. While the prints are reasonably close, they are different. I have only done a few test prints, such as fall foliage.  So far it appears that I have less out of gamut color with imageprint, and (perhaps as a result?), a little more detail in certain areas. This is confirmed by comparing the image print profiles to the other profiles for various papers - using Photoshop proof colors with gamut warning turned on. I also compare the prints themselves.

 You can make your own color icc profiles and use them within imageprint.  But, even if I were able to develop better profiles, I would still use ImagePrint for all the reasons I mentioned above. With regards to cost, the no-charge profiles makes a huge difference. High quality profiles from profiling services can cost you up to $100 each. While I have 4-5 papers I generally use, I often use various other  papers for specific projects.  That would add up for traditional profile services, and then when you change your printer, you would have to start all over again. That is not for me 😀

Regarding Canon, the do support the more recent models, but I believe the direct hardware support (bypassing the printer driver like they do with Epson) is coming in the next few months.

BTW, I have a P800. If only image print could fix the need for Epson black ink swap 😀
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 01:08:06 AM by loganross »
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loganross

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2018, 12:33:21 AM »

Hi Andrew.  I just spent time at your website.  Of course, I have been there before, however I wanted to say thank you for all of the great content!


Or not, as it's not necessary when what you see is what you get in terms of brightness between print and display. Zero adjustment needed (even on the Gamut Test File below).
Prints are either too dark or they are not. The best print ever made (photographic or otherwise) will appear too dark if viewed in too dim an environment. The digital values are either correct or not; altering the display or adding yet another so called print lighting adjustment is simply a goal in producing ideal RGB values. Soft proofing aids hugely too. All of this is far easier to accomplish when the display and the print brightness actually match! And that's doable with display calibration of good quality.
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colorbyte

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2018, 01:35:48 PM »

As the creators of ImagePrint we like to look at the product in two ways.  Workflow for printing, making it easier to print without mistakes and waste.  Having a delivery system for profiles for a very large variety of papers and simplifying color management.  Then we look at actual printing technology.  What can we do to drive the printer directly to make it print better.  This will vary from printer to printer.  We were the first to create 8 pass micro weave it later became standard in Epson drivers.  We were the first to control the OEM inks in a narrow gamut mode for BW.  A subset of this is what ABW in the Epson driver is.  We also developed a true color model to use orange and green inks that dramatically improves the stability and archivability of the print.  And on and on.  So we are actively driving the technology forward.  By writing every aspect of the process we find little ways to improve things on different levels.  Unfortunately this also why we can only support a small number of printer models.  This process is both time consuming and expensive.  And we understand not everyone is at the point to jump into a very custom product like ImagePrint.  ImagePrint is by no means a perfect product, but striving to be perfect is what makes it better over time.  Forum participants tend to attract more of the crowd that likes to do it themselves and go through great lengths to make things work which is admirable.  ImagePrint is a product built for just the opposite.  It's designed for those who don't want to have to worry about the process.  It's not about one image that prints better this way or that way its more about consistency and predictability for all images.  I want to thank all those using ImagePrint or not because printing is important and communication of ideas is important. Happy New Year!  John
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loganross

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2018, 03:09:44 PM »

Hi John,
Thanks for the detail. Out of curiosity, is there a philosophy you and Irene have when making color profiles (particularly the relative colormetric variety)? There were a few comments about handling blues and magneta color cast. I have not experienced these issues in real photos so far.  I would be great to understand what the underlying philosophy is. Is it accuracy, pleasing results, or something else? 

Also, since there is interest in Canon printers these days (I am happy with my Epson), can you speak to where IP stands in terms of full Canon support?
As the creators of ImagePrint we like to look at the product in two ways.  Workflow for printing, making it easier to print without mistakes and waste.  Having a delivery system for profiles for a very large variety of papers and simplifying color management.  Then we look at actual printing technology.  What can we do to drive the printer directly to make it print better.  This will vary from printer to printer.  We were the first to create 8 pass micro weave it later became standard in Epson drivers.  We were the first to control the OEM inks in a narrow gamut mode for BW.  A subset of this is what ABW in the Epson driver is.  We also developed a true color model to use orange and green inks that dramatically improves the stability and archivability of the print.  And on and on.  So we are actively driving the technology forward.  By writing every aspect of the process we find little ways to improve things on different levels.  Unfortunately this also why we can only support a small number of printer models.  This process is both time consuming and expensive.  And we understand not everyone is at the point to jump into a very custom product like ImagePrint.  ImagePrint is by no means a perfect product, but striving to be perfect is what makes it better over time.  Forum participants tend to attract more of the crowd that likes to do it themselves and go through great lengths to make things work which is admirable.  ImagePrint is a product built for just the opposite.  It's designed for those who don't want to have to worry about the process.  It's not about one image that prints better this way or that way its more about consistency and predictability for all images.  I want to thank all those using ImagePrint or not because printing is important and communication of ideas is important. Happy New Year!  John
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jlilley

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2018, 08:15:35 PM »

Has anyone tried to make their own profiles through Imageprint 10 for the Epson P7000 printer?  I'm told by Colorbyte that you can't do it.
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loganross

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2018, 11:23:24 PM »

There is a section in the manual  for making your own profiles.  I am not sure if there is something specific about that printer, however.

Has anyone tried to make their own profiles through Imageprint 10 for the Epson P7000 printer?  I'm told by Colorbyte that you can't do it.
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colorbyte

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Re: New article - printing with Imageprint
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 12:06:15 PM »

Re. Building your own profiles for P7000.

It's not impossible.  The profile itself in standard ICC.  The problem is that we imbed a special lookup table in the profile itself.  This is another layer of control for the new P series inks.  The blacks get dark really fast and vern non linear.  With profiling you only have so many steps to deal with.  We use the lookup table to help the profiler along in trouble spots.  So when you build your own profiles you have to put the correct lookup table back into you profile.  We are going to provide a utility to do that, we have it on Windows but need to build it for the Mac as well.  Once you can do that it's very easy to build your own profiles.  Our support dept. would be more than happy to help with that.  We can tag the LUT for you after you are done.
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