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Author Topic: Sub $10K 4K video camera for landscape videos?  (Read 2735 times)

fredjeang2

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Re: Sub $10K 4K video camera for landscape videos?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2018, 07:31:27 PM »


By organic I mean the auto focus.  There are a lot of settings like face and object tracking, which is crazy good, speed and also touch screen autofocus, which with touch screen obviously means if your going back and forth from face to face, you'd need to be on sticks or have the smoothest hands in the world.

The file is really good and the following makes no sense, but I did a quick prelight test on the first setup, prior to makeup, with my red ones* and the canon 1dxII.  Shot the 1dxII in still and motion. The actor was on a bed, with a glass wall behind her.   The wall has those translucent blinds with a slight rib.  On the RED 1 with RED 35mm prime, set at 800 iso, with a kino fill.  on the 1dxII still image which is listed at 14 bits in depth the blinds blew out, and to match the look of the R1 the canon was set at 1250 iso.

On the canon in 8 bit 24fps motion jpeg codec at 800 MBS you could see some slight detail on the blinds, so the footage appeared to have more range than the still image?  Go figure.

Now on my RED 1's with the RED primes which have a smooth rolloff, you could see full detail of the window blinds.  Not dark, but pretty much what my eyes see.   It's crazy but my R1's since the last update of firmware (I think two years ago)and the newest resolve and cinex, I nearly always set the native iso at 640 or 800 and even though the evf and on camera monitor is set as high as it goes, if it looks good in camera, you have to stop down a little over 2/3's a stop or the file is hot, which means I'm probably around 1000 iso if set at 800.

*Now what is also crazy is the Canon is shooting 800 MBS and my R1's at their best compression level redcode 42 is only 40 megabytes per second and very clean.

The commercials have not been released yet so I can't show the screen grabs.

Anyway, the Canons have a great look.   If you want to test the Canon autofocus rent an 80d and 17 to 55 2.8 Canon zoom with stabilization and though not as exactly good as the 1dxII it's pretty amazing. 

And also keep in mind about the above, the lighting test was quick so we could have been slightly off, though throughout the shoot the Canon held up very well.

IMO

BC
I agree on Canon colors (at least for advertising/fashion).
And it seems indeed that the AF is the most sophisticated today.
Thanks for the practical and informative details.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Sub $10K 4K video camera for landscape videos?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2018, 07:34:50 PM »

EXCELLENT!  Pixel peeping at its best.  Very educational. Thanks for that bcooter.

DP'ing is certainly more complex now than it used to was.  :)
If you watched zen the full 2 videos of the serie, you should be canonized. :o
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 06:40:32 PM by fredjeang2 »
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Don Blauvelt

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Re: Sub $10K 4K video camera for landscape videos?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2018, 11:43:01 AM »

If you are intending to use one camera to do both, I would look into the Canon
1DX MK II as has been suggested by others, otherwise my previous suggestion, the Canon C200 for video only.

I personally have some limited experience with the Canon 1D X Mark II, shooting a series of tests for an upcoming project. I found the video quality to be excellent and the Dual Pixel AF superb. I didn't continue with it, because I realized I needed Pro Camcorder ergonomics for my documentary project.

1DX 2 Video Spec:
4k (DCI 4096 X 2160):
24p, 30p @ 500 Mbps  (23.98,29.97)
60p @ 800Mbps (59.94p)

1DX 2 Photo Spec: 20MP

A further though on your landscape video part.
I think you will find that you will need a camera with 60P frame rate to have more control over wind and other movements.

Don
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fredjeang2

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Re: Sub $10K 4K video camera for landscape videos?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2018, 07:46:11 PM »

If you are intending to use one camera to do both, I would look into the Canon
1DX MK II as has been suggested by others, otherwise my previous suggestion, the Canon C200 for video only.

I personally have some limited experience with the Canon 1D X Mark II, shooting a series of tests for an upcoming project. I found the video quality to be excellent and the Dual Pixel AF superb. I didn't continue with it, because I realized I needed Pro Camcorder ergonomics for my documentary project.

1DX 2 Video Spec:
4k (DCI 4096 X 2160):
24p, 30p @ 500 Mbps  (23.98,29.97)
60p @ 800Mbps (59.94p)

1DX 2 Photo Spec: 20MP

A further though on your landscape video part.
I think you will find that you will need a camera with 60P frame rate to have more control over wind and other movements.

Don
Coot is right. The footage of the Canon is really good and usable
Even side to side with heavier artillery.
What I donít like is the weight/ergo. The ideal design would be
The
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bcooter

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Re: Sub $10K 4K video camera for landscape videos?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2018, 07:25:33 PM »

Coot is right. The footage of the Canon is really good and usable
Even side to side with heavier artillery.
What I donít like is the weight/ergo. The ideal design would be



I agree with Don about Canon.   The c200 has the newest Canon sensor, the 1dxII shoots way above it's 8 bit specs and if your using Canon still glass, the 24 to 70, is one of the best still and motion zooms I've ever used (the latest version).   For the C200 the aps C 17 to 55 with IS is also a great piece of glass, though won't work with the 1dxII (go figure).
Same with the 70 to 200 with IS.

Canon color is smooth and vivid, has to be pulled down some in saturation to match my REDs but if your not use to color grading, IMO  Canon will be the easiest color to hit.

Knowing this, (and never using it) I'd take a long look at the ursa mini pro.  Their cinema dmg file works well with Resolve and my little BMPCC (though 2k) will blast through resolve on my laptop like crazy.

People get hung up on price and names but I think black magic is one heck of a company and offers a lot.   With the right AA filter you can shoot it next to Arri's and REDs and I don't think anyone would notice the difference.     Just like in still cameras there are a lot of opinions and sometimes snobbery towards cameras.   

One thing to think of is if want to move from EF glass to PL you can change mounts by the user, unlike Canon.

Glass makes a difference and though they get few applause, the original RED PL primes to me are beautiful with nice roll off and I tested them against two kinds of Zeiss primes and Angenieux zooms.  If I was wealthy I go Angenieux zooms, but as I mentioned before you can buy a full set of RED lenses for 9 grand.

still grab from R1 and RED PL mount glass.


The main thing is test if you can before you buy and most of all smile.   Filming can be hard, but it's huge fun.

BC

P.S.  Fred thanks for moving these discussions along and most of all thanks for contributing.




« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 07:55:00 PM by bcooter »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Sub $10K 4K video camera for landscape videos?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2018, 07:47:19 PM »


I agree with Don about Canon.   The c200 has the newest Canon sensor, the 1dxII shoots way above it's 8 bit specs and if your using Canon still glass, the 24 to 70, is one of the best still and motion zooms I've ever used (the latest version).   For the C200 the aps C 17 to 55 with IS is also a great piece of glass, though won't work with the 1dxII (go figure).
Same with the 70 to 200 with IS.

Canon color is smooth and vivid, has to be pulled down some in saturation to match my REDs but if your not use to color grading, IMO  Canon will be the easiest color to hit.

Knowing this, (and never using it) I'd take a long look at the ursa mini pro.  Their cinema dmg file works well with Resolve and my little BMPCC (though 2k) will blast through resolve on my laptop like crazy.

People get hung up on price and names but I think black magic is one heck of a company and offers a lot.   With the right AA filter you can shoot it next to Arri's and REDs and I don't think anyone would notice the difference.     Just like in still cameras there are a lot of opinions and sometimes snobbery towards cameras.   

One thing to think of is if want to move from EF glass to PL you can change mounts by the user, unlike Canon.

Glass makes a difference and though they get few applause, the original RED PL primes to me are beautiful with nice roll off and I tested them against two kinds of Zeiss primes and Angenieux zooms.  If I was wealthy I go Angenieux zooms, but as I mentioned before you can buy a full set of RED lenses for 9 grand.

still grab from R1 and RED PL mount glass.


The main thing is test if you can before you buy and most of all smile.   Filming can be hard, but it's huge fun.

BC

P.S.  Fred thanks for moving these discussions along and most of all thanks for contributing.

Thanks James. A pleasure to read your posts.
I always learn from you.

I think that this black hole of time called motion
Imagery, in a way, requires a great dosis of self disciplinre.
When a system/workflow works, it's
Productive to avoid experiments
Unless there are absolutly benefic.

One trained on Resolve does not switch to a Baselight or Mistika ecosystem
Just like we would do in stil imagery.
Everything is more time/ressources consuming.

Sticking to a known workflow and equipment brings the advantage
To avoid loosing time learnycurving here or there, testing new exotic stuff
and stay focus on the art. Otherwise we rapidly become engineers and that
Is not going to be fun.
This black hole of time is fine as long as we stay away enough
From its gravity. But if we go too close, we get
Sucked.

There are many aspects that are very exciting in motion
Imagery. Others, not that much, depending on each interest.
I really do hate all the color management
And gamma sagas. I think it's the borriest thing
Created by digiman. Some dudes find that so interesting,
It became their jobs. But motion is supposed
To be a highly collaborative and fragmented
Discipline as each area is complex and requires
Specialists. That means budgets.
But when there are limited number of people to
Embrasse the work, the key is to stay in the boundaries of one or 2 systems
That one knows well and don't get distracted.

I don't want to sound old conservative, but when
One knows a workflow from prod to post...
That is a huge time/problems/headackes/cash/ saver.
We might see Red vs BM
X grands cheaper, compare numbers.
But...what is the value of your expertise with Red? All those
Years working wlth has a value, beyond the cost of gear.
It is true that there is some snoberry wlth brands.
But as you also pointed in another thread,
The active pros don't like to change their horses so easily.
The reason why Arri rules motion here is not because Arri
Is best, it is IMO because they are used to it. They know
Exactly how to make it work. Just like PS rules the macdudes
In still.
Infinity is a great software, managed by a dynamic
Company. I don't like the souscription plan of Adobe.
But the pro still imagery is based on Adobe. PS, InDesign and Illustator.
I remember many phone calls from the printers when I refused in the past
To learn Illustrator and sended them Freehand files  ;D
There is no option. Even if one embrasses Infinity, he/she will have to
Use InDesign and Illustrator anyway so in the end it's PS.

In motion, one highway is better than many paths.
(...oh...I sound a bit Osho here...)


« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 08:27:04 PM by fredjeang2 »
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